Forget all the calculations guys, we used the Vat Optimiser and fell foul of the HMRC,we simply could not pay back the vat they said we owed and are now in liquidation.

If i could give you any advise please DO NOT SIGN UP FOR THE VAT OPTIMISER or pull out as soon as you can.

Cheers Gassey

Manicgas, 64% is NOT fabricated!

Look at the worked example on the website-£1,378.52 @ the reduced rate and £768.14 at standard rate i.e. 64.21% at the reduced rate. I am neither stupid nor lying. (NB their example is based on £2,350 gross and uses the 17.5% rate)

The claims of savings are net of their 25% commission. Your maths is wrong I am afraid. £134 grossed up is £179 reduction in VAT. £179 VAT saving is 15% reduction on £1,193 net i.e. 60% using 5% rate. Look at a sample of the working sheets that you have printed off and filed with your invoices, or look at the online examples yourself.

HMRC Notice 708/6 covers the law given under VAT Act 1994 Section 29A. It completly disallows what the schemes are doing & HMRC have verbally told me heating sytems are regarded as standard rate, as defined in that notice. My personal recommendation would be to stop using it. You may have got away with it so far but many haven't and have ahd to repay the VAT. Some businesses talk of facing bankruptcy as a result!

Fair play - We are a medium sized company trading in the London area and we have been using Corgi VAT Saver for over 2 years. We have also had a VAT inspection within the last 12 months and had no problems whatsoever. Your Capital letters of "it is too good to be true" is most certainly FALSE. You also say you have researched the product yet your 64% reduced rate is very much fabricated. Corgi VAT Saver claim to save you around £134 on a typical installation with a gross price of £2400. Calculations would tell you that £400 VAT minus £134, leaves you VAT to pay of £266. That is 33.5% of the installation at the reduced rate and pretty close to what we save on an average basis. We are also well aware of a lot of rumblings within the industry but have good knowledge that the VAT people will be defeated on this very soon. VAT Act 1994 (which Corgi VAT Saver) is based around is available for all to see and clearly states what can be aportioned at the lower rate of 5%. The VAT people are wrong with this one and all will be reveiled soon.

I've been researching the VAT Optimiser & Corgi VAT Saver and IT IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE!

I have looked at the worked video example on the latter's website and it says that on the installation in question, 64% (no this is not a typo!) is at the reduced VAT rate of 5%. I rang them to ask how it could be so high but they said that it includes pipe insulation, 25% of the controls within the boiler (believe it or not), trvs, etc!!?

The VAT rules clearly state that if the controls are supplied as part of a whole system then the whole job becomes standard rated for VAT purposes.

So when you do get a VAT inspection, and you will at some point, you will have to repay all of the underdeclared VAT plus probably a fine too, not forgetting of course the 25% commission you have already paid them for the use of their software. So at least 125% of the VAT 'saved'!

I will be writing to HMRC. The combined adverts states over £17 million saved already so thats £17 million in unpaid VAT!

I will not be signing up for either.

Stop - they have not pulled out of the court case. The company who was the lead case has closed and there is definitely a new company who is the lead case. Do not send money to HMRC. Remember we have been waiting 3+ years for someone on HMRC team who was on long term sick to return to work for them to re-commence. The VAT notice is published by HMRC on their understanding of the reading of the bill which is passed through Parliament - that doesnt mean they are right. That is why there is a court case. We have also been advised by a company in the borders that HMRC are in the process of pulling out of the case - and to be honest that would sound true as our lovely VAT man has recently backed off. Sit tight for a bit longer.

The vat optimiser has pulled out of the court case with the hmrc for reasons only known to them, we have now had a letter from the hmrc asking for the full some of vat they say we owe from using the vat optimising scheme. This would not be the end of the matter either for us as we have carried on using the scheme so will owe more if they investigated again.

The vat optimiser and the corgi vat saver are run by the same company "sis products", it seems they have set up two companies to make the scheme look more lagitimate. Be very careful if you are going to use this scheme, my advice is now to steer well clear of it.If you read the vat noitice carefully it clearly states the single supply rule and the hmrc is sticking to this vigorously.I do not now what will now happen with my business but i am glad one way or the other that a decision has know been made.

The annoying part about all this is that I could end up going bust and the vat optimiser is still operating, people need to be warned of the dangeers of using this scheme.

Just wondering if anyone has heard anything about the fight optimiser has against HMRC?

Ive not heard anything - assuming it is still going on?

Been reading this post with interest as was about to start using the corgi saver but thought it was a bit too good to be true.

So I rang the tax office was passed to several people who told me more or less the same thing , if it is part of the boiler installation you cant claim. I pointed out that if corgi put there name to it surely it must be ok and was told the same in the end I was passed to there technical department and was told that if I was claiming for the controls in the boiler and the labour involved then I must be fitting a boiler in the first place so it wasn’t covered end of story. I for one will not be using it as this all sounds a bit of a grey area and the vat only deal in black and white.

On another note I got the leaflet from the corgi company and the Optimiser site on the same day a bit of a coincidence if there not linked.

yes they are undermining the product and dodging a court case. We are so fed up with it we are hounding our vat inspector and everyone should do the same and prove to the HMRC they cannot continue to scare and destroy businesses hiding behind "the powers that be". Stand up and be counted and lets push the HMRC for a legal decision cos we think the Vat Optimiser have a good chance here.

I agree, i think Vat Optimiser has the upper hand. HMRC would have shut it down by now. No coincedence that a Tribunal has not happened. If you ask me, HMRC are trying to defeat Vat Optimiser by undermining the product instead of going to court.

corgi put their name to the VAT Opt we have the old paperwork with the Corgi logo stamped all over it. The VAT Opt was headed in large bold colourful heading on the old Corgi web site where installers had to notify details of gas appliance installations!!

The new Corgivatsaver also has the Corgi logo stamped all over it. We also talked to Ruth, Corgi VAT Advisor within the Corgi offices 2/3 weeks ago and she was fully aware of it.

I agree either Steve Brown has balls of steel or hopefully they are very clever people and have genuine evidence.

Fingers crossed.

Im not sure that Corgi approve of this scheme, Steve Brown must be crazy to use their name on the scheme unless it is endorsed by Corgi, I really cant see Corgi putting their name to it untill the vat optimiser wrangle is cleared up, can you?

Yeah I would agree - the Vat Opt must have something up their sleeve. Doesn't make sense that another company has set up through Corgi just like the Vat Opt!!! Remember Corgi is involved their logo is splattered all over the old and new vat saver. You don't take the VAT man on and and not have a smoking gun but this matter has to be forced to court to achieve a conclusion one way or the other.

Hi

Just a quick note, the Corgi vat saver is run by an x employee of the vat optimiser, Steve Brown, he must know something we dont or he has got a lot of balls to set up this scheme knowing what the vat optimiser is going through. I have recently spoken to James at the vat optimiser and for some reason he did not mention that Steve was running this scheme.

good luck everybody.

Hi,

I was told exactly the same by Vat optimiser and I had to pay back all the Vat + interest.