I have just had another plumbing company from the southwest phone me - don't know how they got our number but they phoned the Corgi VAT Saver and low and behold its the same people who answer the VAT Optimiser phone! What is going on???

yeah I'v just noticed the www.corgivatsaver.co.uk but I have a problem here, could it be the VAT Optimiser setting up a new business and closing their current limited company and leaving us all high and dry cos if they lose we want all our fees paid back in full!!

I think I will speak to my accountant 2moro cos if I don't need to pay this money until the test case is heard then it helps us alot.

I really hope the VAT Opt wins because I really think they are onto something but its whether the powers at be will allow the plumbing industry a slice of the case in the lower rate of VAT.

Hi i am new to this forum and was looking for Vat Optimiser imformation when i came across this forum,my company is the same boat as a lot of companies out there, the Inland Revenue has also told us that we owe a substantial amount of vat from Vat Optimiser use.

Personally I think the Inland Revenue have something to think about before they make companies pay back vat payments,we have appealed our assesment,not through the Vat Optimiser but through our accountants and have been told no interest or penalties will be charged and no payments will need to be paid untill the outcome of the test case has been resolved.

We have have done nothing wrong in our view and continue to use the Vat Optimiser,however there is even more hope now as Corgi have just introduced their own Vat Saver scheme which looks pretty much the same as the Vat Optimiser.Corgis rates are cheaper just as a matter of interest, hope this is of some help.

Yeah of course if I hear anything I will keep you up to date cos it certainly causing alot of worry. We are also in Scotland.

Keep in touch.

Yep fingers crossed it turns out in our favour. It looks like we will have to keep checking though to see when case goes to court so please keep me informed if you hear anything and vice versa.

We're from the central belt in Scotland

We are in the process of paying back the money to the VAT and hopefully fingers crossed the VAT Optimiser will win this case as there are alot of other companies right behind us who will pursue this avenue. We are not using the VAT Opt at the moment because like you we cannot take the risk but if they win - my fingers will be read hot claiming back all the money we are due.

We have listened to both sides and don't like what we are caught up in but lets be honest here the VAt Opt are limited and they could have easily closed the door and walked away but to date they have completed appeal forms etc and stood their ground. Hopefully they will stand their ground win or lose because if they do lose we want our thousand of pounds back from them for fees in relation to a dud product!

What part of the country are you from?

Following my last post and digging a little bit more into this situation we find ourselves in, we have now requested a formal assessment from HMRC (to determine money due), which in turn has allowed us to appeal the decision on the use of the vat optimiser as there is currently a tribunal case betwenn HMRC/Vat optimiser. In the interim, we unfortunately have to pay all the money back (we are paying this over a period of time) however if the decision works in the optimisers favour then we can claim this back. Until this decision has been made, could be a long time? we will not be using the optimiser as its not worth any further monetary risk for our company.

We have a plumbing company and have also received a visit from HMRC. Yes we are very annoyed that we too have found ourself in a position of having to pay the VAT for the previous 3 years, but I can assure you we have been VAT registered for 20 years and did not receive any notification from HMRC advising us not to use the VAT Optimiser.

We have listened to both sides of the argument but even though we find ourselves in this "fight" which is not ours whether you like the VAT Optimiser or not they have very valid points and the plumbers should unite behind them and fight the HMRC as there are so many grey areas re energy efficiency materials that HMRC massage to suit their own ends. The VAT inspector we had constantly contradicted himself and quite clearly didn't know what he was talking about. Please read the legislation of Parliament and then refer to the HMRC notes and you will see the VAT actually confuse themselves.

The plumbing companies must stand up for what is right and stop being ripped off!!

thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately I did try and go down the road of breaking down elements of the job to 5% as per 706/8 notice e.g. thermostatic valves etc however after the vat officer came to visit our premises, it was identified that these elements are incidental to the supply of the boiler and that the whole installation applies the 17.5% (then 15%) rule. I also checked this out with the vat helpline and they stated the same. We can only apply reduced rates where we are fitting just valves etc on their own.

Yes I agree about the optimiser bill, definitely worth pursuing. HMRC were aware of optimiser and apparently did an audit a few years back to identify those heating engineers using the system to warn them against its use however as we were not vat registered at the time, we were not part of the audit.

The inspector will have explained exactly why you need to pay the VAT over and you can challenge that if you think they have made a mistake. VAT Notice 708/6 covers the areas that are eligible to be charged at the reduced rate and you should be able to see whether what you are doing fits in with the definitions in it. Para 2.5 is very clear - if what you're doing isn't covered by one of those areas then you need to charge 17.5%.

You don't need fancy software packages to work out what VAT to charge - just work out what VAT rate should apply to what you are doing after searching the HMRC site for special rules for certain types of supply and then calculate 17.5% on the standard stuff and whatever reduced rate applies to the other bits. If in doubt about what rate applies to certain types of work ring the HMRC helpline and ask them.

For example:

Cost of boiler and its installation 17.5% VAT

Cost of manual or electronic timers, thermostats, mechanical or electronic valves, including thermostatic radiator valves and their installation 5% VAT as per VAT Notice 708/6

You'll have to be able to work out the cost of the timers, valves etc separately to the cost of the boiler to be able to justify the separate rate to HMRC if they inspect. You might also have a problem if they argue that the timers, valves etc are merely incidental to the supply of teh boiler (covered in para 2.3).

Looking at the Vat Optimiser site it seems to charge a % of the VAT saved so if I were you I'd (at the very least) send them a bill for the same % on the VAT you've got to pay back to HMRC. Presumably you got the HMRC inspector to speak to them to find out how the system works and it didn't help ?

Oh yes the vat optimiser seemed to good to be true. We are a plumbing company that have been using the system for nearly 2 years and received an inspection recently only to be told that HM customs DO NOT APPROVE the use of the vat optimiser!!!!!!! We now have to pay thousands back to HM revenue and customs and are truly dissapointed that the optimiser has managed to get so much money out of us. The vat notice 706/8 does not reduce the rate on boiler installation however somehow vat optimiser does........I wish I had looked into this more before going ahead and using the system, lesson learned that's all I can say, you dont get anything for nothing in this world!

maxsteam:

andy1959:

after a visit from a tax inspector from HMRC have been told that i have to pay HMRC the vat in full.

I don't even need to find out what "VAT optimiser" is to answer that one. If the VAT man says you've got to write future invoices out while standing on your head and whistling "On Ilkley Moor", then that is what you must do.

I agree, the vat man is its own law. Unlike other creditors they are the ones that can make life turn from good to hell.

andy1959:

after a visit from a tax inspector from HMRC have been told that i have to pay HMRC the vat in full.

I don't even need to find out what "VAT optimiser" is to answer that one. If the VAT man says you've got to write future invoices out while standing on your head and whistling "On Ilkley Moor", then that is what you must do.

I have used the vat optimiser and now after a visit from a tax inspector from HMRC have been told that i have to pay HMRC the vat in full.

Has anyone else had dealings with vat optimiser and HMRC