OK just to answer a query of yours from a while back: It is the date of the FIRST obtaining the credit card that is important to whether the agreememnt is enforceable or not. I see you first took out the card in 2003/4? if so there is a strong chance it might be unenforceable.

The fact the company didn't send a signed copy of anything tends to reinforce this feeling. Can you describe what they did send, or better still if you can scan the document and use a site like photobucket.com and link your pics/scans to this forum. It is simple and free.

Stop panicking about the phone calls, in fact stop talking on the phone to them and ignore the calls.

I note they have cited the Copies Regulations and what they say is accurate in that they do not have to supply a document with your signature on it. Think on though, IF they did have your signed and fully compliant agreement, wouldn't they send it to you to stop all this ping pong of 'you owe us', 'I can't pay' stuff? No they would hit you straight off with a court claim.

Let us know what they have sent, stop worrying and let us advise you what you can do. It may be good news (although expect some hard work and lots of letter writing)!!

Hi basa,

Thank you for the quick reply. I don't have a scanner, unfortunately, but I will list what they sent:

1. A letter which ways the following:

Thank you for you recent letter requesting copy documents for your account. You requested copies of the executed credit agreement and a statement of your account under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Please find enclosed a copy of your credit agreement as requested. In accordance with section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983, this is your original agreement and if any terms have been varied, then the copy agreement will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signaturer and date of signature have been omitted from the copy provided as permitted under Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983.

The status of your account, as at date of this letter is currently open and behind with payments.

Your current outstanding balance is £XXXX

As your account has variable interest rates which may change from time to time. I am unable to provide you with a specific schedule of payments detailing the amount due each month in order to pay the current outstanding balance in full. However, the minimum monthly payment will be 3% of the outstanding balance or £5, whichever is greater. Your statements will be produced on the 11th of each month and the minimum payment will be due within 26 days of the statement date.

I trust this information will help you with your enquiries.

2. A printed sheet / letter entitled Terms Of Your Credit Card Agreement which, on one side states my address, credit limit and account number and says:

Thank you for your recent request. Please see ovcerleaf the current terms of your agreement with us.

For the rest of your terms and conditions, please see the leaflet enclosed.

On the reverse is, I assume, a typical list of terms and conditions such as Interest Rate, APR, Missing Payments etc. It says on the top of that page:

CREDIT AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 between us and you, the customer named above on the terms and conditions set out below and overleaf.

3. The leaflet, which is one of those typical t&c leaflets you get with your statement every now and again.

The seperate letter I got from the legal services just said that they had been instructed to collect the amount owed on the credit card account and says that if not dealt with could result in them taking further action.

My credit card is around '03/'04, yes. Possibly even before that actually. To be honest, I think I had it a couple of years before that, cleared off the balance and never used it for a while (a couple of years), and then started using it again around '03/'04.

Hope this is what you need. And again, thank you so much for the help. It gives hope and does lift the burden a great deal.

Wishing you a great day,

mennie

OK it is item 2. we need to concentrate on.

A compliant credit agreement should have the name and address of the creditor and yourself. There should be a statement of the credit limit (or how it may be determined), the interest rate for both purchases and cash advances (if applicable) and the timings and amounts of repayments (or a statement as how these may be determined). It should then have a signature box headed "Consumer Credit Agreement, sign only if you wish to be bound by it" (or something similar). In this box should be your signature and date. All this must be on one page (that includes a reverse side) or on pages that are undoubtedly and provably linked to one another (by way of page numbers etc.).

Without actually seeing this document it is difficult to judge (pun intended!!) its enforceablity. Do you know anyone who can scan it to a memory stick or CD or something? Maybe a local job or work agency, post office or stationary suppliers.

Actually, thinking on, the real deal killer (for them) is the fact you say document 2 states your credit limit and account number. Now how can you have had an account number let alone a credit limit when first signing the credit agreement, when at that time there was no account??

Hi,

Just to clarify on the document in question. There is no signature box anywhere, no signature or date either. Well, actually, there's a part on it, in the agreement, where it gives the option to take out payment protection insurance and there's a box to tick. Below that it says FORM OF CONSENT and there's a box for the signature, below which says: Please indicate if you wish to purchase Payment Protection Insurance by ticking the box and signing the form of consent above. I therefore assume that this part to sign is only in relation to the PPI. In any case, there's nothing on this document at all with a signature or date, nor is there anything that asks for a signature outside of that PPI part, nor anything remotely suggesting anything along the lines of "Consumer Credit Agreement, sign only if you wish to be bound by it" The only thing that touches on mentioning a signature is where it says:

Before signing this agreement:

Please make sure that all information you have given is correct

Please read the t&c and make sure you understand them

You may only sign this agreement if over 18 years of age.

You request us to issue you with a credit card and PIN under this agreement

But that's it. Nowhere to sign or date.

Any use?

Thanks so much,

mennie

I really can't get a grip as to what it is they have sent purporting to be an agreement. From what you describe it is as enforceable as a crisp packet, but I don't want to commit you to anything without being 100% sure.

Apart from a scanned copy all I can suggest is you type up exactly what is on the form in the exact positions as they appear including any boxes around stuff. Is there really no way you can get a scan on here??

At the end of the day I'm almost certain you have an unenforceable agreement there (the credit limit and account number are the killer deal for me).

Can't recall what you have written to them prior to now, but this is the 'dispute' letter you should now send:

Credit Card
Address





Dear Sir / Madam


Ref: Account # xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx - IN DISPUTE

I am in receipt of your letter of **/**/09 and its enclosures.

I now have to point out that, whilst you may now have complied with my request pursuant to s78 and even considering the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 with omission of any signatures or date of signatures, the document you have provided as an alleged agreement does not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 60 and is thus not properly executed.

You should note that in the opinion of the Office of Fair Trading, creditors should not suggest that they have a signed compliant credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this – to do so could be a ‘misleading action’ under Reg.5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations.

It is the lack of a properly executed agreement that is a very clear default, not necessarily your response to my s78 request and it is for these reasons that I DISPUTE the alleged agreement and I do not acknowledge any debt to your company.

In that respect I draw your attention to Consumer Credit Act 1974 s127(3): The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with.

You are reminded that the following applies in relation to this alleged agreement whilst it is in dispute.

You: * are not entitled, while the dispute continues, to enforce the agreement.
* may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* may not pass the account to a third party.
* may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* may not issue a default notice related to the account.

Please note: You should consider this letter as notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act (1998) to cease processing, with immediate effect, any data in relation to this account, both within your own internal records and records with any third party agencies, that may cause substantial damage or substantial distress to me or to another.

In clarification: To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed and compliant credit agreement and is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not share my data. Any attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office. You may also note that sharing my data with credit reference agencies whilst an account is in dispute is contrary The Banking Code para. 13.6.


If you do issue a default notice against a disputed agreement or persist in sharing my data with third parties regarding a disputed agreement, I may instigate court proceedings to have the alleged agreement declared unenforceable, the default removed and the information removed from my credit file.

I would be happy for you contact me in writing with your intentions to resolve this matter, which remains a formal complaint. In the absence of a signed compliant credit agreement, I would again invite you to consider reducing any alleged debt to £0 and enter a ‘full and final settlement’ as discharged on the alleged account and with any third parties, or contact me further to agree a mutually acceptable resolution.

I would ask you to note that I will not enter into any communication regarding this matter except in writing by post. I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit of communication other than the manner I have respectfully requested may be in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well as breaching the OFT Collection Guidelines.

To sum up, I am not obliged to make any further payments to you until you provide me with a copy of a properly executed agreement. Should you not have a properly executed agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me. If you do have a properly executed agreement there is no reason why you should not allow me sight of it in order to resolve this dispute.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and I look forward to your reply in the first instance but definitely within 14 days from receipt of this letter.

Regards



xxxx **/**/** xxxx

You will need to go through it and edit to your liking.

Always use a signature that is not your normal signature. That way they can't photoshop it onto a compliant agreement.

Hi,

Looks like this should be marked as URGENT now! I just got a letter from the ccc today, an official notification of default. It says the following:

STATEMENT OF DEFAULT

Your accound nis now officially in default.

As of 18/7/2009 you have defaulted and owe us the £3,756.82

1. We have terminated your account. This means you have permanently lost your account and all spending priviledges on your card.

2. We now have the right to demand that you pay your full balance immediately. We may add any reasonable costs we incur as a result of recovering the amount owed.

3. We will notify the credit reference agencies that you have defaulted on your agreement. This may affect your ability to obtain credit from other lenders.

4. We may place your account with, or sell your account to a debt collections agency, which may use door-to-door collectors or begin legal proceedings to recover all sums owed to us.

Our nominated representatives will contact you shortly.

I'm at my wit's end now. Thought I was getting somewhere but this letter, I think, has really thrown a spanner in the works. Please help with what I can do or should send now. I haven't had the chance to send the last letter you advised, I was going to do that today.

Thanks,

mennie

Sorry for bumping this up. I really want to get something sent off today if possible, because I'm really going up the walls with panic now. Should I just send a copy of that last letter that basa posted up there?

All and any help is much appreciated.

Thanks kindly,

mennie

Hi Mennie,

I can tell you are a bit worried so I thought I'd jump in while basa and stubie-one are otherwise engaged, though they are the gurus on this.

Yes I think you should send the letter.

The debt / account is in dispute, as it states in the letter they cannot serve the default notice in this instance.

Send the letter recorded, then you probably have to prepare a follow up letter stating that they are contravening the Consumer Credit Act 1974 as detailed in your previous letter by issuing this notice.

Good luck

Sparky.

Thank you sparky. I'll send that in the meantime, then. Was just frightened of leaving it that bit too late or something. I guess that by actually sending something I feedl like the cogs are in motion, if you get my drift. No doubt I'll be back in about this often enough :-/

Actually, do I need to send another £1 postal order with this letter. Just wanted to double check.

If you have already sent them £1 you don't need to send them another.

:)

Sparky.

Thanks sparky. The latest update is this:

I sent the letter on Saturday, but haven't yet heard back from the ccc. However, also on Saturday I got the following letter from their legal representatives:

You must read and respond to this letter immediately

We recently sent you a letter asking you to pay the outstanding balance you owe on the above account. However, you failed to make a payment or call us. We are concerned that by not responding you may be risking further action being taken to recover the outstanding debt.

As you have not responded to our previous letter one of our agents will be calling your home within the next seven days to discuss your debt.

We will cancel our agent calling if you contact us first. We want to set up a payment agreement with you to sort this out.

Calling today will bring you peace of mind and will prevent this situation escalating further.

This previous letter they speak of is the one I mentioned that I got on the same day the ccc sent out the supposed agreement documents.

What should I do now? I really don't want anyone calling to the house.

Thanks,

mennie

OK first thing is stop panicing, that is exactly what these letters are designed to do. The 'calls' they refer to are phone calls, the scumbags try to scare you by this blatant con. If by some very slim chance a lowlife does call to your home, do not let them in or even put a foot in the door, Ask them to leave since they have no appointment and close the door. Have a cuppa and relax. They can do absolutely NOTHING.

Also remember that without a compliant agreement they dare not take you to court.

Now to business.

Send this recorded delivery:

I refer to the above matter and your failure to supply a true copy of a properly executed credit card agreement in response to a s78 Consumer Credit Act request.

We appear to be at odds in this matter, and clearly you remain in default of the Copies of Documents Regulations to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on this matter.

The original properly executed credit card agreement is the document that you would need to produce in support of any county court action against me and the same document that I would make a court application for you to produce if you failed to respond to such a request under the CPR were I to commence proceedings against yourselves.

It would therefore seem to me to be entirely in line with the overriding principles of the CPR for us to make every attempt to settle matters outside the court system.

In furtherance of this objective therefore, I would suggest that this matter can be disposed of without further delay by you allowing me to inspect the original properly executed credit card agreement. Thus the matter can a be resolved one way or the other.

Normal convention requires that any such document is inspected in-situ and I am prepared to travel a reasonable distance to inspect this document.

Alternatively I am prepared to pay the reasonable costs of having this document couriered to the local branch of XXXXX Bank*(or wherever)*for me to inspect it there

I can think of no valid reason, if it is your sincere desire to have this matter dealt with without further delay, why you should not accede to this request. Since clearly if you satisfy me that you do have a properly executed and enforceable agreement then I can immediately enter into discussions with you with regard to discharging the said debt, which is surely what you are trying to achieve! If you decide to instigate legal proceedings against me I will vigorously defend my case putting you to strict proof of your claim and supporting documents.

If however it is the case that you do not possess a legible properly executed agreement then it would be the better for all concerned for you to admit to this fact now and then we may be able to negotiate a mutually acceptable outcome.

Until such time as you comply with the true expectations of the relevant legislation I will continue to acknowledge no debt to your company in respect of the above account.

To sum up, I am not obliged to make any further payments to you until you provide me with a copy of a properly executed agreement. Should you not have a properly executed agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me. If you do have a properly executed agreement there is no reason why you should not allow me sight of it in order to resolve this dispute.

Thanks basa, you've taken a weight off :)

I was just wondering though, do I still send that letter you've just drafted to them if I've just sent the previous one stating that they haven't supplied the true copy and giving them 14 days to respond? I sent that on Saturday. This new letter is from some legal services place. Sorry to seem dim, I'm just not sure what I need to do and I want to be sure before I send anything.

mennie :)

Hi Mennie,

Think of yourself like a boxer, you've got them on the ropes and not long now to the final bell.

The more letters you send them ramming home the same point - they don't have a property executed agreement, the more punch drunk they will feel.

Basa has you got covered there. (a great corner man - to continue my boxing analogy)

You could send a copy of the previous letter to the new legal services place stating that they now only have x days (10?) left to reply including delivery.

Alternatively if the letter basa provided and the previous one are similar enough, you could send them direct, and provide a copy of the previous communications (or at least a list of previous letters).

Good Luck

Sparky.