Having read many of the excellent posts relating to unenforceable CCA’s I decided to take the bull by the horns and challenge Lloyds Tsb Credit card. I only took this action after they had swindled me over a 0% balance transfer.

I sent a copy of a template letter from this forum requesting a copy of my CCA and enclosed the £1 fee.

I promptly received the following reply:

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Dear Mr xxxxxxx

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I write in response to your request for a copy of your consumer credit agreement

under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA).

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I have enclosed with this letter a copy of your executed agreement, a copy of your

current terms and conditions and a signed statement of your account. By providing

you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfied our obligation to

provide a copy of the executed agreement under section 78. There is no

requirement under the CCA to provide you with a copy of the original signed

agreement, We are endeavouring to locate the copy of your signed agreement but

please be assured we would not have opened a credit card account without

having sight of a signed agreement, For the avoidance of any doubt, we have set

out in the appendix to this letter your rights under section 78,

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Having satisfied our obligation under section 78, the agreement you have with us is

fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering

into any further correspondence with you regarding the provision of copy

agreements,

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If you are using the services of a claims management company we would like to

remind you of the recent warnings issued by the Ministry of Justice and Citizens

Advice Bureau. You can find more details about both at:

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http://www,justice,gov.uk/news/newsrelease 170209a.htm and

http://www,citizensadvice,org,uk/press 20090217,

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The Ministry of Justice headline reads "Businesses that mislead the public by claiming

they can arrange for unpaid loans, credit card debts or other consumer debts to be

written off have been told to stop or face action Justice Minister Bridget Prentice

said today, as new guidance was issued by the Ministry of Justice. "

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If you would like to discuss your finances, come in to one of our branches and see a

financial health specialist, Our financial health specialists have been trained to

provide a free service to help you with your finances, giving you guidance and

action plans to get you finances back into shape. All you need to do is come into a

branch and have a chat with one of them.

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To find your closest financial health specialist, simply use the financial health

specialist locator at www.lIoydstsb.co.uk or call 08453 000 000.

.

Finally, we must remind you that failure to make payments under this agreement will

result in collection activities and any default may also be reported to credit

reference agencies.

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Yours sincerely,

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Customer Accounts Administrator

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Appendix - Your Rights Under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

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Compliance with section 78 is achieved simply by sending you a current version of your agreement

but we understand that some customers wrongly believe that they are entitled to an original signed

copy of the agreement.

You will note that section 78 refers to the requirement to provide a copy of the executed agreement.

The executed agreement is the document which has been signed by or on behalf of both parties or, in

other words, the original signed agreement - see section 189(1). The copy of the executed

agreement, however, is the copy required to be sent by virtue of section 63 of the CCA.

The form and content of copies of agreements (including those to be provided under sections 63 and

78) are prescribed under the power contained in section 180 of the CCA which authorises "... the

omission from a copy of certain material contained in the original ... " This provision therefore enables

copies of documents to differ from the original signed agreement.

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Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

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The Regulations that have been enacted under section 180 and which set out what information needs

to be contained in the different copies of documents are the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices

and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (CNCD Regulations). Regulation 3(1) of the CNCD

Regulations provides for the general obligation that all copies of executed agreements must be "true

copies" of the agreement. The CNCD Regulations then set out the content that may be omitted from

or altered in any such "true copy" so, when creating a copy of the relevant executed agreement which

must be provided under the CCA, a creditor may exclude, amongst other information, any signature

box or signature or date of signature. Since the relevant copies may be altered as permitted by the

CNCD Regulations, it is evident that "photocopies" of the original signed agreement do not need to be

provided.

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Amended Agreements

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There are special rules that apply under Regulation 7 of the CNCD Regulation where an agreement

has been varied since it was entered into. Your agreement has been varied a number of times and

therefore Regulation 7 allows us to simply send you" ... an easily legible statement of the terms of the

agreement as varied ... " in order to comply with section 78. Clearly, therefore, it is permissible under

Regulation 7 to provide you with a copy of the current terms of the agreement which we have

enclosed.

We recognise, however, that you may wish to see a copy of the executed agreement, and so we

enclose it, including a copy of the up to date and current terms.

.

However, there was not a copy of an original signed agreement enclosed. So I sent a second letter (again from a forum template) outlining that they had failed to provide me with a copy of an original signed agreement and that the account was now in dispute and also that I would not be making any further payments until they provided me with the requested documents. I received the following response:

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Final Response

Dear Mr xxxxxxx

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Account number: **** **** **** ****

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Thank you for your letter dated 24 September 2009.

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I'm sorry to hear that you are unhappy with our response to your request for

documentation under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974(the 'CCA').

.

Unfortunately, we don't feel able to agree with your complaint. I refer you to our letter to

you dated 11September 2009which enclosed your documentation and also set out in

some detail how we have complied with section 78 of the CCA

.

As stated in our letter, under section 78 we have no obligation to provide you with a copy

of the signed agreement, although we are still endeavouring to locate such a copy, We

can assure you, however, that before we opened your credit card account, we would

have required sight of a signed agreement, If you take this matter further, we are

confident in our ability to be able to prove this.

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In addition, we would point out that your credit card account has been in existence for

some time and you have drawn down and repaid debt on multiple occasions, thereby

acknowledging that your agreement is valid and enforceable.

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The Bank's agreements have always complied with the requirements of all relevant

legislation and we are confident in our ability to demonstrate this. As such, your

agreement is enforceable and you should continue to make payments when they

become due. Failure to do so may result in collections activities.

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The Bank also reserves the right to report defaults to credit reference agencies and we do not consider there to be a genuine dispute as to the amount owed under your

agreement.

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I do hope you now feel that I've been able to answer all the points you raised with us.

Please treat this letter as our final response. This means that if you're still unhappy, you

can ask the Financial Ombudsman Service to investigate your complaint, so long as

you do so within six months of the date of this letter. I've enclosed a copy of their

leaflet, which includes their address and telephone number.

Yours sincerely

.

Card Operations

Customer Service Recovery

Brighton

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Still no CCA but note that they state that they are “still endeavouring to locate such a copy” .They also state “Please treat this letter as our final response”.

.

I am now wondering what should be my next step or response ?

Should I just ignore them, send another letter or a full SAR request.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

What exactly is the difference between what they have sent you and what you wanted them to send you? If you were hoping for them to say that they don't want repaying, it isn't going to happen.

Begining to think this whole cca thing is a scam promoted by whoever to wreck everyone credit files.

Once you withhold payment they give you a default which means future credit to you at bonus creating rates.

debtfreesoon:

Once you withhold payment they give you a default which means future credit to you at bonus creating rates.

Yes. It's only in cloud cuckoo land that, when you stop repaying one debt, you find lots of other people wanting to lend to you.

Hi All,

Whilst I cannot entirely disagree with ther replys to date, the fact is that the response from Lloyds TSB is, at best, economical with the truth.

If you get hold of the relevent legislation, particularly the 1983 regs, you will see that crucial passages of the regulations have been omitted in order to make the response appear to be legal and legitimate.

You may want to quote back the "missing" parts of the regulations and ask them to comply with the full intent on the legislation and amendments.

S

I agree with Stubie.

From this point on it is not the CCCs compliance (or not) with s.78 that is crucial, it is whether any documents they've sent (or could send in the future) comply with s.60 / s.61 of the Act, i.e. is it a properly executed agreement which would be enforceable by a court.

redforever;

You decided to try to get out of paying back the debt you owe to Halifax via the CCA route, and then you decided that Lloyds TSB also don't deserve to be paid back the money that you took and spent, because they somehow 'swindled' you.

Do you imagine for a second that finding a way not to pay, means that the debt will just go away because it might become unenforceable to collect through the Courts - and that will somehow enable you to then get further credit?

Skywalker,

It is not my intention to try and get out of paying my debts, far from it.

I have had major hassle from credit cards companies recently that have made a fortune out of me for a great many number of years. Now when things are a bit tight they want to hang me out to dry. I realise that there is no magic way of getting rid of debts and would not wish to do so, but I think that giving them a few punches back is not unfair !

However you point is valid in that it seems that too many people DO think they can send a couple of letters and get out of alot of debt. This is not the case in this instance though, I have my own reasons for my actions.

While i'm certainly no expert in these matters this whole affair seems to me at least as nothing less than someone looking for a loophole.

Chaning the circumstances for a second - you lend your mate charlie £500.00. and he agree's to apy you back in 6 months time. 6 month's comes around and charlie says "I'm not paying because we didn't shake on it".

Would you be happy lossing £500.00 over a mere technicality or would you expect him to pay you back? There is really little difference between this, and the agreement i'm sure you know you signed.

This "swindle" is, i'm almost certain, you not entirely understanding the situation, and feeling agreived when the truth dawns on you. Your looking for someone else to blame, and your looking for your pound of flesh - both very natural reactions, just not very sensible ones.

The truth is, you borrowed money, you need to pay it back. Because if you don't many more people will be. The banks don't just roll over - oh well we lost XXXXX there. They'll just add the losses onto their charges for all their other customers who even now are paying a lot more, due to these type of events. (admittedly there are also a lot of other causes for this increase as well, but we don't need to be adding to the problem).

I agree 100% with the above post.

What the banks sometimes do though is, after 6 months and one day, say "we want £600 now". My opinion is that anything that hasn't been clearly agreed should not be paid (i.e. unreasonable charges and penalties) but the rest should be paid up as agreed.

While I'd hate my first post to be seen as picking a fight with more established members, I do find some of the responses here a little unsympathetic. I'm sure that some people are looking for loopholes to get out of paying debts and that proportion of them are hoping to get their debts wiped out, but surely the point of these forums is to provide help when needed and not to moralize.

People can be forced into seemingly unmanageable debt problems through all sorts of reasons and circumstances. Would it have been better not to get into debt in the first place? Probably, but not many people can live without some form of credit and sometimes life overtakes all the plans you had made.

I was brought to these forums by a debt problem that I could seem looming on the horizon for me. I've have several credit cards - most of them for at least 7 years - and was managing their payments nicely. Over the last 18 months, despite never (not once) missing a payment or being late with a payment, and always paying at least the minimum amount (usually more), the interest rates on my cards has started to increase massively. I was paying a comfortable £1100 a month to my cards and that was reducing the balance. Now it has become a struggle to find at least £2600 per month just to cover the minimum payments and pay a little extra towards the balance. I haven't used the card or increased their balance any more than they were before, it's just that the Credit Card companies keep increasing the interest rate - one of them has gone from 7.9% to 34.9% over the last year (thanks Richard Branson). I've tried to get a reduction in interest rates but all of them, except Barclaycard, have refused to shift their position. I feel I'm being forced down the route of making them prove an enforecable agreement just to get some breathing room and some negotiating power with them over interest rates. Like most people I want to pay off my debts, but the behaviour of these companies and their loan-shark like interest rates, are pushing me towards having to go down this route. I know I risk my perfect Credit Score, but I don't see many other choices being left open for me.

So, lets give people a break. I came to these forums and was impressed by the selfless help being given by basa48, stubie-one, and commandkiller, among others (sorry if I haven't mentioned you). It might be right to tell people the debt won't go away, and these forums make it clear that entering into a battle with a CC company is not pleasant and certainly not something that should be taken lightly, but I sincerely believe that the purpose of these forums should be to help people out and not question their morals or reasons for wanting to fight the unfair practices and bully-boy tactics that we read about every day.

Go for it redforever and best of luck to you!

Nice first post (and thanks for the mention in dispatches !!).

The major point with which I sympathise is the unmanageable increases in interest we now all face - as you point out getting on for 5 fold increases in some cases (all when bank interest rates are rock bottom). It is this that have pushed people into debt, not irresponsible borrowing. How callous is it to lend someone £500 (to use an example mentioned earlier) with at first a promise of wanting back £550 and then tell you, 'sorry we now want back £675' !!

It is easy for those who have decent incomes, small or no debts or are managing modest repayments to critise others who are drowning in debt repayments and are desperate to find a way out and restart their lives. Make no mistake the pressures on families struggling to live whilst repaying 'money lender' interest rates is crippling.

Add to that the callous way the banks have and continue to behave it is no wonder the little people want to get their own back. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all run up inconceivable debts and ask our neighbours to bail us out whilst still collecting our nice fat salary, plus of course a big fat bonus on top!!!

Again - nice to see a sympathetic post in favour of the life belt approach not concrete slippers!

I certainly don't think it is unreasonable to correct the oft' made assumption that going down the CCA route will somehow 'write off' the debt - it merely makes it non-collectable through Court action.

The debt doesn't go away, and the credit file will show this, which means that sensible APR credit will be unattainable for years after.

It is something to consider, and always (in my opinion) worth pointing out. It's not about questioning morals or reasons, it's about full disclosure of the consequences.

I agree (somewhat) if its the changes in interest that are causing an issue, but to me the OP just didn't come across as being one of these cases, granted that just maybe the way I interpretted it. That said, you know when you take out a credit agreement such as this that the interest charges are liable to fluctuate. How many people complained or would complain if the rates fell?

Understandably, you may not have expected an increase as large as this, but you should have at least prepared for it. I mean its common sense, prepare for the worst and expect the best - so that if your expectations aren't met at least your prepared for it.

I seem to remember reading somewhere on here, that people were able to get the interest frozen on their accounts (along with their spending privaleges) on their cards to help repay the debt. Have you investigated this possibility?

And for the record, i'm one of those lower-income earner's. I know this, which is why I take personal responsibility for my spending and why I get so angry when people don't take the same repsonsibility, exploit loopholes and in the end, add to the increases I have to endure.

Redforever Goodluck with your claim.

If the creditor has not complied with the consumer credit act 1974, something they agreed to do when you signed the credit agreement, the act clearly states in certain circumstances the debt is not recoverable, the law is the law.

also sign this great relevant petiton if you get a moment. http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/CreditRA/