I need help with the above, i am manser.

i sent to the royal bank of scotland a request for a copy of cca under the cca act 1974. They sent me a photo copy of a application form, signed by me in the year 2000, but the form do's not state terms or interest to be paid, in a letter with this application form they state

( WE HAVE AS YET BEEN UNABLE TO SUPPLY DETAILS OF THE RECONSTITUTED VERSION OF THE EXECUTED AGREEMENT. WE ARE SATISFIED THE TERMS AND CONDITION OF THE AGREEMENT WERE ON THE REVERSE OF APPLICATION FORM, THEREFORE YOUR CLIENT HAD SIGHT OF THESE DETAILS WHEN HE SIGNED AND ACCEPTED THE TERMS )

i have not recieved photo copy of the back of application form.Q. is this copy of application form a credit agreement under the 1974 cca act ? Q. if the terms were on back why no copy. Q. would i need to sign back of form to make it legal under the 1974 cca act. Q. WHAT DO THEY MEAN BY UNABLE AS YET TO SUPPLY DETAILS OF THE RECONSTITUTED VERSION OF THE EXECUTED AGREEMENT.

can any one help me with this . thankyou manser.

Manser

I think what RBS are saying is that they cannot produce your original signed agreement to make this enforceable through the courts. RBS would need to be able to show a court your signed agreement containing all the relevant terms.

But this does not mean that you do not owe the money outstanding and therefore you will be asked to pay. I would expect RBS to start collection proceedings, by harassing you by letter and with a volume of phone calls. Once a period has elapsed without payment, they will then sell the debt on to Debt Collection agencies. You could be chased for more than the 6 year statute barred period and your credit record/rating will take a hit. If you are planning on obtaining any credit to purchase a car or house in the future, this may prove difficult. If you end up getting sub-prime loans, these may prove more expensive than entering into a repayment plan with RBS.

If you are having problems with RBS charging you fees/interest which you think are now unfair, I would suggest that you contact one of the debt helplines for assistance. They may be able to assist you with negotiating a freeze of such interest/fees and a repayment plan.

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/

http://www.payplan.com/

http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/

http://www.cccs.co.uk/

Huckster

The problem with entering an arrangement to pay is that it too is recorded on your credit file and is almost as bad as a default.

The only way to maintain a good credit record is to maintain minimum payments. Even then prospective creditors check how much debt you have, how much more credit is available to you under existing agreements and how much more you can reasonably afford. i.e. if you need more credit then you can't afford it !!

hi basa 48, thanks for reply, have sent rbs letter pointing out serious flaws in there reply, firstly to comply with section 61 of the consumer act1974, which by the way refers to signing of an agreement (NOT AN APPLICATION)Aalso flaws under regulations cca (agreements reg 1983(s11983/1553 these set out form and content of agreements for your imformation terms referred to are contained in schedule 6column 2 of the cc(Agreements) regulations 1983/15532. any way will await a reply from them.

many thanks. tiller (manser)

hi Basa48 - Huckster, just an up date from my posting on the 4 nov - 6 nov 2009. rbs are still saying terms were on the back of application form so therefore i would have seen them, ok so thats put that to bed, but they then go on to say this is by the way in responce to letter sent pioting out same flaws and telling them this was not a true copy under the 1974 cca, any way in the letter thay state that regulaation 3 provides every copy of an executed agreement.... shall be a true copy Regulation 3(2) (B) provids that a copy can omite any signature box, signature or date of signature, Q do's this mean that they can produce an agreement from any where and say this is the cliants agreement unsigned?, the letter also go on to say WHILE WE TRY TO LOCATE THE FULL ORIGINAL AGREEMENT WE WILL NOT BE SEEKING TO ENFORCE THE AGREEMENT. Q. do i dare to think thay have no agreement ?

after i got the first letter saying they could not find fall agreement only a copt of application from signed by me in 2000 showing no terms or intrest payments, no refference on form (front ) to terms on the back, i have now sent a request under the sa data protection act 1984-1998, subject access, now if on recieving reply that only producess the same as i got before is this agreement unenforceable.

I would not have taken this action if they had not put the interest up and up in the last year i stated with £8,500 and have paid in the last year £2,600, but they say i still owe £8,100.

in the last part of the letter they say, AS WE HAVE PROVIDED A COPY OF YOUR SIGNED AGREEMENT AND YOU HAVE NOT DISPUTED THE FACT YOU HAVE HAD THE BENEFIT OF THE AGREEMENT SINCE 2000, WE DO NOT SEE ON WHAT BASIS YOU ARE DISPUTING LIABILITY. WE WILL CONTINUE WITH OUR NORMAL COLLECTION AND CREDIT REFERENCE REPORTING ACTIVITIES.

Q. IS THIS A FRETE AND IF SO IS IT LEGAL.

Thanks for any reply. tiller.

hi Basa48 - Huckster, just an up date from my posting on the 4 nov - 6 nov 2009. rbs are still saying terms were on the back of application form so therefore i would have seen them, ok so thats put that to bed, but they then go on to say this is by the way in responce to letter sent pioting out same flaws and telling them this was not a true copy under the 1974 cca, any way in the letter thay state that regulaation 3 provides every copy of an executed agreement.... shall be a true copy Regulation 3(2) (B) provids that a copy can omite any signature box, signature or date of signature, Q do's this mean that they can produce an agreement from any where and say this is the cliants agreement unsigned?, the letter also go on to say WHILE WE TRY TO LOCATE THE FULL ORIGINAL AGREEMENT WE WILL NOT BE SEEKING TO ENFORCE THE AGREEMENT. Q. do i dare to think thay have no agreement ?

Yes, basically they can produce an agreement similar to what you would have signed, but that doesn’t mean they have produced an agreement you have signed. What they have sent (assuming there is not one similar with your signature) is useless in court. There they would have to produce the original of the agreement you did sign (complete with all the prescribed terms).

It looks like they can’t find your agreement (or don’t have an enforceable one).

after i got the first letter saying they could not find fall agreement only a copt of application from signed by me in 2000 showing no terms or intrest payments, no refference on form (front ) to terms on the back, i have now sent a request under the sa data protection act 1984-1998, subject access, now if on recieving reply that only producess the same as i got before is this agreement unenforceable.

I would not have taken this action if they had not put the interest up and up in the last year i stated with £8,500 and have paid in the last year £2,600, but they say i still owe £8,100.

Good move and I empathise with your reasons. Many are in a similar position.

in the last part of the letter they say, AS WE HAVE PROVIDED A COPY OF YOUR SIGNED AGREEMENT AND YOU HAVE NOT DISPUTED THE FACT YOU HAVE HAD THE BENEFIT OF THE AGREEMENT SINCE 2000, WE DO NOT SEE ON WHAT BASIS YOU ARE DISPUTING LIABILITY. WE WILL CONTINUE WITH OUR NORMAL COLLECTION AND CREDIT REFERENCE REPORTING ACTIVITIES.

Q. IS THIS A FRETE AND IF SO IS IT LEGAL.

It’s a sort of threat and typical a creditor would take this stance. It appears though they haven’t provided a signed agreement (at least not a valid one) and are hoping you won’t know the difference. Us debtors think it is illegal, the creditors pretend it isn’t and only the courts will decide.

The basis for your dispute is that none of us were expert in consumer credit law when signing the application forms and didn’t realise they were not properly executed agreements. Basically we were not properly advised of our legal rights and have paid by mistake when not legally obliged to.

Manser,

read what huckster wrote. It may be that the debt is unenforceable (through the Courts) because the CCA cannot be produced, or is somehow legally faulty.

The facts, however, are that you did borrow this money, and you are still liable for the debt.

So, you may be able to avoid being forced by the courts to pay this money back, but the debt wont just disappear, and your credit history will be damaged for at least the next 6 years, if not longer.

Is this the position you want to be in?

Manser

I realise this has become a point of principle about RBS charging you obscene interest but I think you realise that RBS will continue to play games.

Your account is just one of thousands in a similar position and if you send letters they will do the minimum required to be compliant.

Once you receive the SAR details back, it may be worth you writing a 'without prejuduce' letter to RBS Chief Executive about the account and the interest/fees being charged. Perhaps if you wrote an amicable letter, RBS might make you an offer about repayment, waiving interest on the basis that you kept to a repayment plan. This really depends on your overall financial position and whether you can reliably make repayments. If you are not in a great position, then contact one of the debt advisory companies listed in earlier post.

I would think that RBS would want to come to an arrangement with you if this was at all possible. The next step for RBS would be to pass this on to their debt collection team, then probably to Moorcrofts, before selling the debt on to a debt collection agency. If RBS sell the debt on in a year or so, they might get 20% of its value if they are lucky.

Huckster

hi all thanks for quick reply, posted today, i will make an offer to rbs, after i get access report and if no agreement enclose will just pay them about £50 a month, if i do this can they take court action, if they sell the debt can dca take court action with what they have got in way of agreement.

many thanks tiller

Tiller

If you offered them £50 a month directly, they would probably come back with a different amount. The £50 would I guess only be a fraction of the monthly interest.

If you could not agree a repayment plan with RBS, they could still sell the debt on. In regard to taking you to court, they would have to show they had an enforceable agreement and even then you would only have to pay what you could afford.

Instead they will just hassle you into make payments you could not afford, by bombarding you with phone calls and letters.

As I said earlier, once you have the SAR info, write a 'without prejudice' letter to the RBS Chief Executive by recorded delivery, just pointing out that the interest being added to the account is stopping you entering into a repayment plan. If you also point out that RBS have not been able to provide a copy an of an enforceable agreement and therefore as they cannot take this to court, you are looking for an amicable way of sorting this matter out. Put the ball in RBS's court, let them come back to you with suggestions as to how they can help you.

If RBS are not prepared to help, this is the point you decide to either just put up with the hassle of being chased for debt, with associated problems with your credit record/rating and wait until the statute barred period kicks in. Or go through this with one of the debt companies to organise a repayment plan, which will stop you being hassled, but will still affect your credit record/rating. The problem with not paying and waiting until statute barred is that the debt does not disapear. Although it should then not be on your credit record, this does not stop the debt being sold on and companies chasing you. You will have read about people being chased for 10 years or more.

Huckster

hi Huckster, thanks for reply, i dont think rbs will change the interest rate as i have ask them by letter about ten times with neg result, as i am into my 70yrs, i think they think i will pass from this world so they getting as much back as poss, i will make offer after i get the access part without prejudice letter, and at my age i not worried about credit rateing or cra , your notes are taken on board, or being hassled by whome ever.

thanks again tiller

Hi basa 48 and hi huckster, as you know from my last post and reply on the 16th nov from basa 48 , sent rbs a request under the data subject access request on the 11th nov 2009, i have had a reply, below is the letter i got in reply from hbos

Dear...........

DSAR Reference number.............

Data Subject Access Request.

Thank you for your letter requesting access to the personal information held about you: Please find enclosed a copy of the following leaflet for your information: Credit Scoring - How we work out whether we can give you credit,Personal Customer Complaints- Here's what we'll do.

for details of how we obtain and use your personal information please find enclosed a copy of our company privacy statement. This can also be viewed at www. halifax.co.uk/privacy or www.bankofscotland.co.uk/privacy.

I have received your fee of £10 and confirm i am currently processing your request. a copy of the information you are entitled to receive will be supplied to you as soon as possible, and in line with the 40 days alowed by the data protection act 1998. In order to ensure we match your exact requirments , please contact me at your earliest convenience on the above number to discss your request.

With regard to your request for all telephone conversation that have been recorded, i can confirm that they are not routinely recorded. There may be notes relating to telephone conversation included in this DSAR. if you want us to trace specific recordings then please supply us with: date and time of each telephone call: the telephone number which you dialed; the telephone number which you dialed from: the name of the colleague who dealt with your call.

lease note, HBOS plc is not obliged to supply records held in paper format if they do not form part of a relevant filing system, futher details about the data protection act, how personal data is definded and your rights under the act are available on the information commissioner's website at www.ico.gov.uk.

yours sincerely Geraldine ham. data subject access request team.

Q. BASA, DO I HAVE TO DISCUSS THIS REQUEST (IN THE LIGHT OF REMARKS IN PAR THREE ABOVE)

Q. WHAT IS LEASE NOTE, AND THE FOLLOWING, ( REMARKS IN LAST PAR OF LETTER) are they saying they can withhold paper data or records.

Your comments on the above please, and thankyou. Tiller

tiller:

Q. BASA, DO I HAVE TO DISCUSS THIS REQUEST (IN THE LIGHT OF REMARKS IN PAR THREE ABOVE)

Q. WHAT IS LEASE NOTE, AND THE FOLLOWING, ( REMARKS IN LAST PAR OF LETTER) are they saying they can withhold paper data or records.

Your comments on the above please, and thankyou. Tiller

No I wouldn't bother phoning, he/she is most likely trying to find out your intentions. It shouldn't affect you application.

I think 'lease note' is 'please note' with the 'p' missing !!

The note means they can withhold paper records if they are not held in your personal (i.e. relevant) file. i.e. they may relate to or mention you but form part of records pertaining to someone or something else, e.g. a simple list of account holders (or non payers - ha, ha ).

hi basa 48, thanks for reply propt as always, yes i thought that was the reason for asking me to phone, as to the word lease, i thought i had suddenly got property some where, will await reply from rbs.

thanks once again. tiller