i361:

It is not correct to assume that if you draw money from outside UK from an unknown place and third party ATM your bank will be informed immediately about the transaction......

........... I dont see any fault of the bank in this case.

It would appear the first assertion must be true.

I would say the second assertion may or may not be true but the answer can't be known until Lloyds TSB has explained what happened - and therefore why they consider themselves not to be at fault. Anyway if there has been a Visa processing issue I don't think it's reasonable for the customer to be the victim.

That this became a serious issue for the OP is only because of the precipitate way the charging system works. It's the banks that claim there is a service cost element in the charge but yet again the "service" is little more than the posting of a letter.

Can nobody see that this ATM (or Turkish network) is free money to a fraudster? Probably explains the bank's reluctance to explain.

Hope the OP reads this cos I've downgraded his fault rating, not entirely to zero, but nearly.

The man argument against the bank in this case is the incorrect information they provided to the customer about his balance. However since the money was not drawn form the ATM run by Lloyds TSB they dont have any information about the transaction. It is not correct to assume that if you draw money from outside UK from an unknown place and third party ATM your bank will be informed immediately about the transaction. You may not like it but I dont see any fault of the bank in this case.

mooreaz:

a quick check of a mini-statement should make you aware that there is still a pending debit.

I largely agree with your argument however I interpret the OPs issue is that the sum was never deducted from the available balance, or potentially was but dropped off before being noticed.

Regardless of "fault" I believe a customer is entitled to a full explantion of why either there was no online referral, or alternatively if there was why the available balance didn't reflect the withdrawal.

Yes, technically a customer has responsibility for being "balance aware", though perhaps regularly checking online is evidence of diligence (for an electronic transaction if not access's "cheque".)

Either there was a Visa issue or there wasn't, but the customer is entitled to a proper explanation and not to be dismissed. I know from experience banks don't/won't provide this transactional information to customers but also know that if they don't/can't provide it when asked by the Financial Ombudsman Service, it's quite likely they will be found against.

The lesson is clear.

I don't think Larry is denying some responsibility, but just that there was an issue with the ATM system that led him to believe he had more money in account than it actually did.

Whilst it could be that this lack of updates misled you to thinking that you could withdraw more than you should, you were on holiday 3 weeks ago, and so could have checked your balance and mini statements on return from holiday before the statement was processed and sent out, to determine if you were still in credit and would have enough to process any other items, or to discover you were overdrawn and make other arrangements.

Sparky

Hi Larry,

You may not like this as a response, but I don't understand how you are not responsible for this.

Putting aside the bank charges, it is your responsibility to manage the money in your account. If you had £1000 in your account and you withdrew £500 then you should know that you only have £500 left.

The next time you go to the cashpoint, if it tells you that you have £1000 still, then you should be aware that this is not possible and a quick check of a mini-statement should make you aware that there is still a pending debit.

Dear Larry D

I am furious with you!!!! Please find enclosed a bill for £25 for my bank charges.

I sent you a cheque for £150 three months ago for money I owed you and you've only just cashed it. And if you write back and say cheques can be cashed up to six months well I'll, I'll send you another bill for £25. Oh, by the way we're not friends anymore especially since you told me that lie about being a native American Indian to explain your name, "Running Balance". Are you sure???

Er... good luck if you get a refund but be fair getting into a lather about money you spent that got delayed in a system...:-(

I see what you meant Jalexa, this is certainly not a case of Turkish delight though, by any means. !

: -- )

Larry D:

OK, 49% but then you won't accept that either. Actully I was being a little bit subtle about how best to interact with the bank, not judgemental. Maybe others will see that.

Back to the Turkish ATM. I'm assuming that you used a Visa branded card and the machine was displaying a Visa symbol. That means Visa were responsible for the transaction processing. Visa will have an agreement with the Turkish Bank and a separate agreement with Lloyds TSB. It's likely it's the Visa processing which has caused this. Either the transaction was processed in accordance with the agreements or it wasn't. I doubt that Lloyds TSB will admit much about who was at fault and in terms of a Complaint it's not necessary that they do, only that you are not satisfied with the explanation they give you before the expiry of 8 weeks. I doubt you will get a full explanation within 8 weeks. That is a good outcome because you can then refer the issue to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Thanks for your reply Jalexa.

I just wanted to pull you up on one point you made about me being 51% at fault.

I don't think i am at fault whatsoever, Lloyds TSB are a bank, and as so are there to deal with your finances, if there has been a mistake where the wrong amount of money in your account has been shown, then they should own upto that, not try and charge me £15 and £20 a day charges. Do you know what i mean?

Re-reading that it comes across as harsh, i am in no way criticising your advice, but my point to them was that it's obviously your error, so let it go and nothing more will be said about it.

Every single time i have debits waiting to go out of my account, the cash machine or my account on Lloyds TSB's website show this, it's an obvious reminder to show you what you have and what you don't have.

If you withdraw £200 and Lloyds don't record this, draw out some more on payday, then they realise and you get overdrawn, surely they should waive the charge as it was their mistake, that's what they should automatically do as a bank, record your transactions! Pay the money back, no charge.

Thanks again for the advice Jalexa, i'll get straight on that once i've spoken to citizens advice, i want to seek out their opinion on it before i contact Lloyds again.

Larry D:

Please bear with me. This is quite a difficult one to fight because to put a harsh slant on it you made a bone fide withdrawal and relied on the screen balance and not your own running balance. As if anybody does.

In fighting this and discussing this with Lloyds TSB you will get on better if you accept (I don't mean admit) that you are at least 51% at fault.

OK, you have been informed that the ATM transaction was made without any referral. I don't have the exact terminology here but I expect someone will be along with it soon. Make a careful note of who said that and the time and date of the call. Obtain the Lloyds TSB complaints procedure and submit a written complaint strictly in accordance with the procedure. Keep it simple, explain you are unhappy with the lack of an online referral by the Turkish ATM and ask for a full explanation of the circumstances. They have 8 weeks to satisfy you with the explanation. Be careful discussing the issue on the phone. I recommend you ask for responses in writing.

It's your call whether or not you are satisfied after 8 weeks. Ignore any points in any reply not strictly associated with your simple issue. Go through the escalation process for 8 weeks focussing only on the circumstances of your complaint. At the final stage inform them if you do not get a satisfactory explanation of the circumstances you will contact the Financial Ombudsman Service. You are entitled to do that if you remain dissatisfied 8 weeks after first raising the complaint.

At this stage do not refer to the charges in your complaint. I cannot stress that strongly enough.

Separately, dig out the account terms and conditions and make sure that Lloyds TSB have complied strictly with the timetable for the notification of the charges.

Best of luck.

Hi everyone.

I just came home to find a letter saying that i'm £149 overdrawn, at first i thought it was a mistake from Lloyds debiting my loan repayment early, but when i checked i found something even more blood boiling.

Just over three weeks ago i was enjoying a holiday in Turkey, and while over there, i used a cash point, now, what has happened is that the money i drew from this cash point did not register with my account, so anytime i have checked my balance, it said i had so much in total, and of that total, i could withdraw all of the amount even though this money was waiting to be debited, it did not show up on my account.

So now, three weeks down the line, when i've spent some more money on essentials thinking i'm well within my means, the money has been taken out, and on top of that, Lloyds are charging me £15 overdraft fee and £20 a day charges, even though i got the letter two days later!

I've phoned Lloyds TSB and explained that this was their error, and that if my account had given me this information, then i would not be overdrawn, but the advisor told me that it was not their error, and unless the machine i drew the money from told Lloyds TSB about the transaction, they would not know about it. I asked her, "are you telling me that this machine gave me those funds without checking to see if i had any money in the bank whatsoever" and straight away she replied yes, which makes me think they are trying to fob me off.

This cannot be right, it must be their mistake. Any other time i've checked my balance while i have things waiting to be debited, it's told me about them.

Does anyone have any information or advice for me please? I don't really want to phone a Turkish bank and try to speak to one of their staff, obvious language issues will ensue and i will get no where.

Thanks for your time.