Hi

Do not pass this up as just another whinging sob story thread, i am after the best advise PLEASE!!!

There are lots of people out there who have fallen foul of the dreaded companies offering fantastic, unbeatable, to good to miss cashback deals. The stories are endless, and some horific, with some being left in un-recoverable debt.

I myself am one of the unlucky (yes maybe foolish) punters who risked taking the plunge, once to often!!!

I do not mean to sound un-sympathetic, as i feel sorry for everyone who has been unfairly treated, but could someone out there who has been successful in recovering their lost fortunes please advise the rest of us out there searching for redemption how to go about getting the same results.

The threads are full of everyones stories of loss, but none really offering any solid sound advice.

Some advise Trading standards, others filing small claims and many advising to contact the network provider who should be wholly responsible for their selling agents.

I have tried filing a small claim on two accounts the first was succesful, but the company was still solvent. The second has not been so successful with the company still owing me £72 from last years contract and now owing £420 for this years.

Please, Please could some fortunate sole outhere offer the rest of us a lifeline.

Thankyou

andy59

Bottom line with these deals is that provided you have complied with all the aspects of the contract and can prove delivery of the same to the company concerned, your best bet is to go to Companies House and get the registered address of the company concerned and then take out action through the small claims court. This can be done on line for a cost which is added to the final amount being claimed.

The fly in the ointment here is that if the company has ceased trading and is no longer on Companies House records, there is very little legally that you can do.

I won't go in to the various well-documented issues with cashback as you already know them, but your options are limited. There is a move to try and get debt liability made jointly between the reseller and the network using the 'law of agency' however this is not straight forward and until legal precedent has been set I would advise caution with using this line of legal attack.

SHARK!

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For every positive action, there's an equal and opposite government plan.

I have written back in numerous posts on how I dealt with, and succeeded, in taking Carphone Warehouse and E2SAVE to court:

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/community/forums/t/carphone-warehouse-redemption-16477.aspx?Source=COMMS

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/community/forums/t/carphone-warehouse-suck-16005.aspx?Source=COMMS

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/community/forums/t/e2save-shortchanging-on-cashbacks-12765.aspx?Source=COMMS

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/community/forums/t/cheque-back-through-carphone-warehouse-12192.aspx?Source=COMMS

Overall, I don't think it matters too much about the exact company as the procedure is the same anyway. I agree with Landshark, as I went to Small Claims Court and won nearly triple what was owed to me. However, you must be sure that the small claims court is the last resort to obtain monies/compensation/justice so I advise the following procedure for complaints:

1. Phone the customer services (use "Say no to 0870" website so you don't pay premium line costs).

2. Letter to customer services and or complaints department (obtain management name from previous phone call).

3. Companies House for registered address and write direct to CEO asking for response (and hopefully solution) within 14 days.

4. Letter to CEO offering your (reasonable!!!) solution within 14 days or you will start court proceedings.

5. Collect all letters sent, details of all phone calls and contract details and start court proceedings.

Obviously, all letters must be sent recorded delivery and any phone calls should be made so that you can pinpoint cost and effort (itemised billing). You must also know you are in the right to proceed with a court claim. There is another poster on here who wants out of his 18 month Orange contract very early on but he is not complaining of mis-selling, fulfillment of contract or poor service so he has no case. The network provider is not the problem in the present climate, its the third party or company who directly sold to you.

Hope this helps!

This is excellent advice to be honest - if you follow this process you have a chance of receiving your cashback. Some retailers are much more likely to play ball than others however

regards

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Rob Barnes
Head of Broadband & Mobile
moneysupermarket.com

Hi, can't get through on the 2 numbers given on 'Say No To 0870' anyone got a landline no. for e2save? My daughter phoned and was kept hanging for 15 mins without speaking to anyone.

Rob, as you know from the emails I have sent you, my daughter followed the instructions, was told her claim was not valid then received a cheque for the first claim and now had been told the whole claim is now not valid as she sent the first one at the wrong time( she followed the instructions received with the mobile but ordered thro the phone spot which had different set of instructions. the phone spot info actually said that one can continue to make the other claims if any was missed). My daughter phoned the 0870 no. and was kept hanging for 15 mins without speaking to anyone. Can you help in any way, who do you suggest that we contact in the company? Thanks

Hello all,

In most though not all cases the dealers / shop / retailer is acting as agent for the network. There is little point taking on the agent as in law the contract is with the principal, the network. Unless it was made clear and two sets of contract documents were prepared clearly showing a split contract then your remedy is with the network. I know, I and others have suceeded in enforcing it.

Neither is it difficult. at the first sign of problems, shilly shallying, missed payment, quibbling a first request to the network to sort it should be made - in writing and tell the network to replu in writing. They have a nasty habit of denying things only said.

If things dont get better quickly then a first template letter - a letter before action - can be sent followed just over fourteen days later by the taking of the case to CISAS / OTELO.

No courts, no fees, no complexity, no bureacracy, no lawyers, no Shark. Anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong.

See threads currently running relating to Letz talk and Chatterbox (just search those names) where groups are working together to secure their rights. Rights not priveleges. Businesses should operate within the law and the networks and their agents have been riding roughshod over a very well established body of law . . . well, no more.

So, the question was asked 'What happens now . . . ?' Join one of the threads mentioned above and you will see.

KRs Funforus

mobile novice:Hi, can't get through on the 2 numbers given on 'Say No To 0870' anyone got a landline no. for e2save? My daughter phoned and was kept hanging for 15 mins without speaking to anyone.

When I typed 'E2Save' into the site, I come up with 3 free and 4 geographical telephone numbers. My mobile contract meant all landline numbers were free so I used the geographical ones and got customer service or switchboard to move me to the correct department(s), thus costing me nothing. These numbers also got me through very quickly as if they are shortcuts through the queue.

funforus:

In most though not all cases the dealers / shop / retailer is acting as agent for the network. There is little point taking on the agent as in law the contract is with the principal, the network. Unless it was made clear and two sets of contract documents were prepared clearly showing a split contract then your remedy is with the network. I know, I and others have suceeded in enforcing it.

I know you say "most and not all cases", but are you sure about laying the blame and further action at the networks door? Surely, if you buy milk that is past it's sell-by-date from a supermarket (i.e Tesco), your complaint is with the supermarket since you bought from them? The dairy or cows didn't mislead you. Poor analogy I know, but i.e Carphone Warehouse sign you to their specific contract with cashbacks and/or free gifts. Most networks will not offer you this kind of deal if you buy from them directly. Yes, they let it happen but I doubt taking action against anybody but the direct seller will result in anything but a lengthy debate of blame shifting.

When I was having problems, people on here didn't seem to be concluding their course of action and I saw nothing regarding CISAS or OTELO that was making any difference. Maybe that has changed now but I dealt with E2SAVE and CPW and the network would not and could not take responsibility (possibly because of the third party's size). These 'back-alley' retail outlets may be different but at least we, the customer, are getting what we pay for finally.

Kappo,

When you buy milk you pay the retailer not Northern Dairies, Dairy Crest whatever . . . In this case the agents are recruiting for the principals and unless the agent makes very, very clear the separation of contract then the contract both ways lies with the principal. It may seem 'unfair' on the principal but since they are usually big and powerful and agents are small and governable it isn't really.

Indeed, the law requires the principal to keep tight control over the agent so as to prevent the 'third party' (you or me) being deceived or disadvantaged. You can imagine what damage a pair of devious colluding principals and agents could do bouncing responsibility between them . . .

So, no, I didnt buy my deal from my agent I bought it from a network. I bet you dont pay your agent either?

If you doubt look here:

http://www.which.co.uk/reports_and_campaigns/consumer_rights/reports/Consumer%20rights%20and%20problems/Problem%20areas/Mobile%20phone%20problems/mobile_phones_consumer_rights_report_657_127789_6.jsp

And if you still doubt drop me a note and I'll send you the precedents (its mostly in common law) and references to read it up for yourself.

Of course people weren't using it, it comes from another and remote branch of the law usually concerned with business to business transactions, contract and so on. But, they could use it and some of us have. Take it or leave it but don't knock it. In my view far too much energy is being wasted in waffle and hypothetical discussion when half a days worth of time and a month or so should se the matter settled at no cost other than some electricity and perhaps some paper . . .

KRs Funforus (fishing for Sharks and making fin soup!)

That link is something I think every poster on here should see. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 is one of the points I had prepared for my case but I didn't need it in the end. I also had the 'collateral contract' argument which is predominately one that they can never fight against. If anyone wants an explanation of that, please ask.

I believe there are 2 discussions here so to help those that came to this post for advice, we should seperate them.

1. If you buy from CPW or one of it's subsidaries or Link, you will sign or recieive a contract from them with the problematic 'gift' within it. The network as usual serves you with bills but the contract is from the third party. In this case, you must take action against the seller - quote from the link - "cashback deals are usually offered by the company selling the contract, not the mobile network"

2. If you receive no notification of 'gift' on the contract from the seller, then you must first ask the seller who the offer/gift is from. This I believe is where Funforus is saying the network is responsible as the third party offers no defintion of their involvement. It sounds standard but clearly is a big problem. I personally would never deal with a brand I didn't know, as financially they may not be as stable.

As Funforus states, there are many precedents that protect the consumer against the basic premise of paying for a service and it not being provided. While I am not a lawyer, I got some very good advice and research done by some friends of mine in the legal profession and would always advise posters to someone similar. If someone has had success going through CISAS or OTELO, please describe the process please!

Kappo,

Drop me a note if you want more however the process is quick, free and straightforward.

So long as there is no clear separation of contract between the paying to the principal and the receiving from the agent the trigger for action is simply non payment, messing about, imposition of unfair terms . . . it need not be the liquidation or bankruptcy of the agent as it is not with the agent that the contract exists. The agent may be the means of delivery but no more.

Step by step: Raise the issue(s) with the network in writing and require their response in writing, specify the redress required.

If the answer is negative or nothing happens serve the equivalent of a 'letter before action' (I have a tried and tested template) giving fourteeen days for delivery of the previously agreed contract or clear refusal and agreement of deadlock - or no reply which will be assumed as deadlock . . . .

If delivery of contract then fine - some people have had payment of cashback by networks at this point.

If refusal or no answer fifteen or sixteen days later complete the submission to CISAS or OTELO (again I have a tried and tested template) and send it in . . . . wait a week or so . . . .

Either - the network pays up

or - it goes to arbitration

None have gone to arbitration so far as I think the networks dont want to have the scores against them recorded. It is early days and only a few have gone through but a big surge is coming. It will be interesting to see if they run or stand and fight and get cut down.

Hope that helps, Funforus (avoiding Shark infested small pools)

I'm OK Funforus as I won my case and now only deal direct with the networks forfeiting the 'gifts' they promise - I just didn't understand your method as the larger companies i.e CPW are not members of CISAS or OTELO, but it's a method that obviously works. I think Andy59 should be reasonably happy as he, and others (if they read this) have 2 detailed processes to work on.

Since the thread is slightly messy through our lengthy discussion, I suggest that Rob and/or the moderators, pick out our 2 courses of action and create a highlighted 'static thread so to keep successful methods visible to everyone. It would stop the hunting around for newcomers since I'm pretty sure bumping threads is not allowed.

Funforus, how can I contact you? Shall I give you my email address as I'd like to ask you for more info. I got nothing back from chatterbox (on vodafone network, contract now ceased). Currently, my daughter's with e2save but got the contract with the phone spot because we thought this is a better company as my other daughter has not had any problems with CPW. You might have read some of my posts.

Thanks

Hi Funforus, non payment of cashback mobile rainbow

Please could you help me with a similar cashback deal through Mobile rainbow. Contacted Virgin who said that CPW had the contracts off them to sell on through dealer/agent ? Nowhere in my paperwork is there any mention of CPW being involved with this deal i took out to join Virgin with a cashback contract, they ( Virgin ) said that my contract is with them just for the minutes and services only. i thought that the network being the principal are liable for their so called agents ? can you advise.

weatherman