If it would help, I could fax or email a scanned copy of the contract to you, (I can fax from my office tomorrow morning)

Aly

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On a crusade against Firstplus

Just to Clarify your circumstances what should have been put in place is a 6 month deferment plus enough PPi to cover 50% of your repayments for the other 6 months to tell you the truth [bearing in mind this is a 12 month contract] if what I am understanding is correct I couldn't see anyone except for the totally unscrupulous barely considering this plan when you work it out you would only need about a grand as an emergency 2 grand if something happened to both of you. If I did something like this as a mortgage/insurance broker and got caught I would lose my licence as would all brokers!!

Hi Crocky and All

I have just come across this thread and am reading it with great interest (no pun intended - honestly).

The reason is in early 2007 I took out a secured loan with a company called E-Loan, I then get a call from a company called Paragon Finance. I only wished to have a secured loan for £20,000 however, after the smooth talking sales person called me he said my credit rating etc and my salary would enable me to take out a loan for £25,000 as the monthly payments he mentioned verbally werent much different to the amount I had initially requested.

I knew I made the point at the beginning that I wanted to consolidate everything, credit cards etc into one monthly payment at a fixed rate, initially it was good, however I received a letter saying the rate had increased, and these kept coming.

Also i was sold the insurance. It was sold to me on the basis that it would cover me if I needed it and if I didnt I would get everything back after 5 years.

Well after the fourth or fifth letter stating there had been another increase I decided enough was enough and took the opportunity to consolidate the amount within a remortgage for which a family Independent Mortgage advisor sorted out for me.

However the fight was in the redemption of this loan with Paragon, oh my god, what a bunch of cowboys, they told me three different redemption values, and on the second redemption the amount had gone up, when I queried this, from memory it was said it was because I hadnt asked for the loan insurance i had paid for to be rebated off the loan amount, I was furious, if I had paid the 2nd amount, they would have been overpaid ! and the advisor mentioned this casually !.

It took numerous calls to get it sorted out. Funny enough I received an email from a company called "refund claims ltd" I am wondering whether I should contact this company or just leave it.....:

We can see from our records you took out a secured loan in April 2007 with Paragon Personal Finance which included a Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) policy. This policy may have been mis-sold to you, and if it was you could be untitled to claim the premium plus interest back.

If you can answer ‘no’ to one or more of these questions, then you may have been mis-sold PPI.

· If the insurance was optional, was that made clear to you?

· Did the adviser tell you about any significant exclusions under the policy – for example, the exclusion that says you won't be covered for any pre-existing medical condition?

· If you took out a loan or finance agreement, did the adviser make it clear that you would have to pay for the insurance up front in one single payment?

· If you had to pay for the PPI as a single payment, did the adviser make it clear that the insurance cost would be added to the loan and you would be paying interest on it?

· Single premium PPI insurance normally only lasts for 5 years. If your loan or finance agreement was for longer than this, did the adviser make it clear that the insurance would run out before you had finished paying for your loan or finance agreement? The adviser should also have told you that you would continue to pay interest on the insurance premium, even after the insurance expired, was this the case?

Can you please call me on ********* when you receive this email to see if we can start a claim for you today. Alternatively if you would like an information pack sent out in the post to you please reply to this e-mail.

Kind Regards


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Hi OK I've got it now Halifax 71 received his PPI back, then that is an admission that it was unsuitable

Generally what happens when you claim you are sent a claim form [like for car insurance] and you would have to provide certain documents sick notes/ redundancy paperwork and that is normally a time when insurers do a few checks that the claim qualifies with the conditions I.E you have a break in and claim that you lost £500 in cash as your policy provision was for only £200 that is all you would get or they broke into your car on your drive the insurerer may ask you to claim on your car insurance as you can not cross cover items on different policies. The point is these have been mis-sold as they have provided blanket cover for everyone regardless of circumstances. My mate lives in a big house and his insurance cover is £500,000 for a premium of £550 are we all going to pay £550 I certain;ly aren't in my little terrace! I'm sure there is a disclaimer in there regarding occupational benefits!!

Don't get confused with the 50/50 its just the way I do it its like if I do Life cover for some one [couple] if the premium is not miles out I effect 2 individual policies as the 2 are mostly as cheap as a joint that way god forbid if something happened to hubby the policy would pay out and the partner still has cover whereas with a joint policy the cover finishes when one partner passes just something I do it doesnt really affect this

Hi Mr Spock..

I wouldn't bother with this company - its something you can do yourself. Martin Lewis's website (money saving expert) has a really good guide to claiming mis-sold PPI and template letters that you can adapt to your circs. You've nothing to loose by trying.

Aly

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On a crusade against Firstplus

Hi Spocky I alaways called the man on the telly that [sorry!]

By all means contact them but what you will find is they will probably charge you

A a pretty big fee up front £499 £999 or more

B An amount equal to [usually] 25% of any monies claimed back

C Both of the above with differing amounts

OR

You can do it yourself I usually drink in the Anchor in Taffs Well and when you say one for Crock watch them go for the top shelf and the size of the glass

Cheers Mike

Hi They have deleted 2 posts

To the team I apologise so i assume people can access through my profile

Note: As a broker please read the notice below.

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/community/forums/t/important-information-for-brokers-and-advisersple-13246.aspx

Hi crocky and to all First plus customers.

Can I have the month by month FHBR rates you have found for my complaint.

To all PPI complainers.

Write your letter get a final response or date your letter and wait 8 weeks.

Next the ombudsman - they will take it that far.

He will say that they over stress the money back which is a lie and you were pressured they WILL pay every time forget bad backs and all that. It's an unfair policy. Get your money back. If you want me to do it for you I will for a v.small fee and the satisfaction of sorting out these cheats .

Do not give up!

Also cancel the policy and ask for the lump sum you are paying each month to be frozen this will reduce your payments and bring some immediate relief.

Finally if you bought through a broker. Letter them both. They do talk. Give them the eight weeks and then on the obudsman quoting them both.

Do not waste time getting CD's etc... of your calls you don't need them as the policy, its terms and the way it is sold is deemed unfair and badly sold.

Stick in there . PPI gone - £4K refund.

Now could the whole loan be unfair??? Lets keep the pressure on

You can add me to your list of supportors willing to fight for fairplay from Barclay Firstplus..

I tick all the boxex, I can send details but here we go in summary:-

Barclay First Plus secured loan, 3rd time I went back to them for re-financing.

Salesmen convinced me my best course of action was to consolidate all previous borrowing, unsecured loan and credit cards, in total borrowed £100K plus took out PPI adding £20K

Few points on the PPI which I am in the process of challenging:-

I have received the tapes; during the call after being told many times this is optional PPI I say, “Ok can you re-quote without the insurance”. Very disappointed sounding salesman says, “oh... ok let me take a look”, comes back and says “sorry I can’t make this work, because there is a significant discount on the settlement figure if your renew your PPI and without it I would need to lend you more than 100K and that’s our maximum”

Also, really didn’t realise it was payment protection only the 1st 5 years or a 25 year loan... Sales person did mention 5 yrs but presented it with an emphasis on that’s when I would get my repayments back… and also, whilst employed at the time of the loan I owned 35% of the company which employed me, which I understand would make the PPI worthless...of course now understanding the small print, I will receive no payments back because I have arrears… Criminal Corporate Deception and Theft in my opinion by Barclays Bank!!!!

So far I’ve been offered the standard response from Mr. Green at Barclays FirstPlus, amounting to a few thousand pounds off the balance figure…

One other point on the loan, I had a few months previous asked FirstPlus if I could re-finance, they said no I was at my maximum lending… I was called by a person claiming to be from FirstPlus asking if I needed refinancing a few months later… He hooked me up with the salesperson who sold the loan and PPI, took my details and then the salesprson called me back... on the call I say, “I was surprised you can help because a little while ago I was declined further borrowing”… However, the tapes don’t contain the call from the person who initially called, is this right, could someone else ( a third party) have been farming for sales commission opportunities for a person inside of Barclays FirstPlus and is that allowed?

As for the interst rates.. damn can this even be allowed, just been to court with FP over a repossesion, they have the second charge but because of the current house price crash have no chance of getting a penny back, I have about 150K of negative equity.. even so, the FP lawyer wanted to make every argument for repossession, I had taken a lot of advice through the consumer forums and the judge was very understanding.. suspended the respossesion order and accepted my offer to pay the 8K at a rate of £50 per month.. now I want to help you all get FP interst rates to a fair and responable level and fight for my PPI contribution which is of course worthless...

Let me know how I can help...

Ready to fight

Hi Richard on your point about the farming it was outlawed by the FSA to coldcall [by coldcalling it was assessed as an uninvited call even if you had other business with the same company] but that wasn't until [fairly] recently.

I have been digging around other sites and trying to glean some info on FP, they have [and are] taking repossession steps on people who have fallen behind. If you have read the whole thread here Aly is in the process of reclaiming her PPI and I don't know if you were aware of the recent FSA ruling on Eggs mis-selling of PPI. A hefty fine and they are now addressing all cases as having been mis-sold!!

I believe all FP customers are in the same situation as Egg customers. As companies will generally not want to create too much attention for fear of repurcussions [i have to get a dicshunry] they will in all likelyhood create damage limitation, i.e. settle and they might [but this is dodgy for them] put a clause in saying that it is without predjudice and asking [requiring] that no news of the settlement should be given by the customer to third parties, several companies have tried this in the past.

Some people [seem] to have had part of their ppi repaid to them I have asked people to put actual information on here so we can assess the reasons [and any precedents] but people are a bit slow to do so, i haven't found a case yet of FP admitting it has mis-sold the ppi and although people have said they have been repaid they haven't outlined the % and the reason.

Aly has been promised an answer by the 12th January, depending on what their response is I would suggest differing courses of action depending on that response

A. FP repay the ppi [they will probably not admit to mis-selling but cite ''other factors'']

If this happens then I suggest everyone applies [the precedent having been set]

B. They baulk and make an offer [probably around 50%]

I would suggest refusing this [their partial offer sets a precedent. give them 14 days to settle fully

C. If this fails then for everyone to complain to the FSA, FO, press, pressure groups [which! etc] and try to get an Egg decision

One of the things I am surprised by is nobody has picked up on how to start hurting FP [and Barclays] I have posted on here the fact that FP had a Christmas Party at the moment that is meat and drink to the press most financial companies have cancelled their Christmas Parties [LLoyds TSB [Wales] were due to have theirs to-night and cancelled at a cost of £60000.

Most of the press have ''financials'' and it won't even cost the price of a stamp to access their sites on the web and start hurling dismay. ''I am utterly dismayed at the likes of barclays and FP having Christmas Parties when the poor customer has to meet the cost of spiralling loans even though interest rates have come down'' or some such

For those of you who don;t take the Daily Mail [I only take it for the xword, honest!!] they have a name and shame campaign on at the moment citing companys whose service etc is bad. The mails sister site thisismoney will take votes online if you decide to vote I would vote twice [if you can] for both companies but at this point I would not mention anything to do with ppi or a concerted campaign until after the 12tth Jan.

Mike

To PPI Success from FP

Sorry only just read back are you saying that FP has refunded ALL of your PPI?

If so and on what grounds and how did they word their reply were there any special conditions even if they didn't word them as such were there any sort of legal speak or jargonese at all.

What dates do you want for the rates it might be as well if you post your rises on here and I can include them in the timeline and we can compare them

Hi Mike and everyone.

These rate changes were posted on MSE by 'sickoffirstplus'

July 05 -agreement signed 8.59% apr

misplaced any changes advised between start and Dec 06

Dec 06 - 9.4%apr

Feb 07 - 9.7% apr

April 07 - 10.2% apr

July 07 - 10.5% apr

Jan 08 - 10.8% apr

Mar 08 - 9.7% apr

May 08 - 10.2%

apr Aug 08 - 10.5% apr

Merry Christmas to everyone! Aly

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On a crusade against Firstplus

I have checked side by side the rates of Halifax and Sickoffirstplus and althiugh the rates have a smsll variation I would put this down to the fact that as they were taken out at different times the prevailing rate was probably different which leads me to believe that they were in all likelihood using the FBHR to set their rates at.

Again there is a small variation of the rate rises timewise, this again COULD have been due to the fact that they did them in tranches [it's just a little unusual say if you think of credit card rates] as there is exactly a 1 month difference between the 2 but apart from that the rates changes are consistent!!

My overall thought on this is to challenge the contract [on fairness] with various bodies as to it being unfair the only problem with it is it does clearly state [in the contract] that more than one rate could be used, that said it seems unfair that they would be able to keep the rate the same [or put it up] when the BOE rate has come down dut to the fact that they clearly stated in letters that increases were due to the rise in the BOE rate. Hmmm! Let me think on this as I have an outcome of a loosely related decision by the competition committee,

Hi - i've seen my name quoted on here so i thought i'd register and join the fight.

Re: PPI.

I claimed on the usual 4 basis: -

- implied that would assist application. This was rejected.

- Full info not provided. This was rejected – info in handbook etc.

- No financial background. Rejected due to rigorous training etc.

- Not in best interests as both receive sick pay.

This was accepted. They weren’t satisfied that their Account Manager took into consideration the existing arrangements. They had a record of my wife explaining that we both received sick pay from employers and that that would be sufficient for the loan. They therefore felt that the recommendation to take the insurance was inappropriate. Full refund + 8% statutory interest.

Re: Interest Rate.

I am currently drafting a letter – copied below but not finalised yet.

I write with reference to the secured loan that I took out with Barclays First Plus in January 2006.

I have, with concern, noted the increase to the APR applied to my loan over the 3 years since its inception and more recently have awaited confirmation of a decrease in the APR to reflect current market conditions. In the absence of any communications from you in this regard I would appreciate your answers to the questions detailed below (in bold).

Over the 3 years of the loan you have increased the APR 7 times (and decreased once). The APR when I took out the loan was 8.4%. This corresponded to a Bank of England rate of 4.5% and a 3 month LiBOR of 4.59%. My current APR is 10% with a corresponding Bank of England rate of 2% and 3 month LiBOR of 3.24% - as at 10^th December. The loan was sold to me with a “Variable” APR. I note in my terms and conditions that you refer to the FHBR. This was 5% at loan inception and currently stands at 5.5%.

My loan wasn’t advertised / sold to me as a preferential start up rate or anything like that – it was simply 8.4% APR. The potential future disparity between the BoE rate / Libor (how I define market conditions) / FHBR and my APR was not explained to me. I fully expected my interest rate to be aligned to BOE rate changes – to a certain degree anyhow.

My terms and conditions are at best unclear in that yes it does clearly state that interest rates can increase & decrease (I know this) and it does say that they will change for other reasons, e.g. competitiveness. However as Barclays FirstPlus have closed their doors to new customers the competitiveness angle is no longer relevant. I suggest to you that Barclays FirstPlus customers are being used as a cash cow to support Barclays businesses that are still subject to competition.

The term “variable” was used by your salesperson and I accept that it is noted in the terms and conditions. However there was no explanation of how the APR could be amended in complete contrast to market conditions. It is my belief that you are using the term “variable” unjustly and you did not fully explain to me the implications of taking out such a loan.

Question 1 – as I understand you retain copies of the telephone sales process, do you believe that the salesperson made me fully aware of the possible APR rises, e.g. where they are not linked to BoE rates, LiBOR or FHBR?

Your loan literature defines the term “variable” as “The interest rate on your loan is variable. This simply means that your rate could go up or down in line with market conditions.” Source – Your website.

Also as I stated above the terms and conditions are at best unclear – in my opinion they are intentionally vague.

Question 2 – do you believe that the terms and conditions of the loan clearly and accurately detail the fluctuations that could occur in the APR?

Question 3 – can you fully explain how the term “in line with market conditions” is supposed to be interpreted?

The 35 repayments made to date have all been made by Direct Debit. I haven't missed or been late with a payment hence my risk is probably better than it was at the loan inception. The only conclusion I can draw is that the underlying risk of others defaulting is being used as justification for hiking my APR. I can only assume some bean counter has worked out that by charging good payers more that more than offsets those that would default anyhow.

Question 4 - Is the current 10% APR on my loan a fair reflection of a change in the underlying lending risk?

I am assuming there is a record of the basis for providing me with the loan at 8.4% APR.

Question 5 – Can you please provide a full explanation of the basis for this APR being used? If there is not a record please provide an explanation of how it was arrived at anyhow?

My APR was amended in April 07 from 9.2% to 9.7% as a direct result of a FHBR increase (source – your letter). It was then reduced in March 08 due to “market conditions” (source – your letter). The FHBR in April 07 & March 08 was 6%.

Question 6 – Can you please explain how condition 7 of my loan works in practice, specifically the variance against FHBR in any 12 month period?

Question 7 – Can you please reiterate the justification for the 8 changes to APR since the inception of the loan? As these have been in line with BoE changes i assume there is another reason due to your current failure to pass on rate reductions.

Question 8 – following on from question 5 please explain what has changed in order to arrive at the current variation from BoE / LiBOR / FHBR?

You provided a loan to me using an industry understood term – “variable”. It is my opinion that Barclays First Plus is using the term “variable” unfairly. I am under no illusions that a very basic reply will be forthcoming, however I would appreciate a response to each of the 8 questions raised above. As you can no doubt conclude my next step is to refer the matter to the Financial Ombudsman to see if they agree with your administration of my account.

Please provide a reply within 14 working days.

Hey Halifax

Your draft letter is awesome and articulates all of my frustrations with our loan. Please let me know when you send it and what reply you get. Would you have any objection to me using chunks of it? obviously i'll wait for your response from FP before I do this. Almost every point is relevant to our situation too.

There are so many other FP customers on this forum and on MSE complaining about this, they will have to justify their refusal to lower rates sooner or later.

Aly

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On a crusade against Firstplus