Gabriel - great submission which will I hope help me resolve major problem

Thanks again

Gabriel - I just wanted to say how helpful your posts have been. I have today had a new gas meter installed, and I was getting worried because the dials seemed to be going around much quicker than before. But having seen your post, I realise now I have a metric meter. As you say it has a "5 dial reading" and in the morning, when it's light, I'm going to check that it has a long serial number. I've had my old meter for years, and I have checked on my bill that the units were being multiplied by 2.83 - thus confirming that I had an imperial meter before.

Thanks again - I think you've set my mind at rest - just as long as it's going round only 2.83 times faster and not more!!

Geoff

Hi Craig,

You can try that argument with them, it may help and you may get a reduction for goodwill. The best bet you could hope for is the direct debit discount over the outstanding amount, they may want you to pay it off in one go for that though, and that really is best case.

I would wait till you hear from CD, they should give you a contact number for the company complaint department who may take your complaint a little more seriously than the average call centre person. Your not going to get the bill written off, you should probably face that, but they should at least give you a payment plan for the balance and/or perhaps make a reduction. Get a commitment on that then ask them about you changing suppliers, they can let you transfer if they want to, even with the balance, but they look like quite a small company and with the credit crunch and all that I would be prepared for the fact you may be stuck with them until your up to date.

You should also get on the DD tariff in the meantime to save yourself some money.

Hope this helps mate,

G

G

thanks again for your reply.

they do use a 39.2 calorific value. so my argue now then is that the tariffs are to high and not out KWH usage? i had planned to move supply right away between npower or BG. and play on the fact they did not bother to contact me from begining to set up direct debit or to even look at tariff so i can shop around. My argue with them now will i think base around this that they did not try and tried it looks fleece me as long as they could on those tarriffs. i am sure there is sometheing i can do about that. i have email comsumer direct and await a response. should be anything else i can do?

thanks G

Craig

Hi there,

didn't know where to put this reply but my problem seems to have been sorted for the time being anyway.

That is until they read the new metric gas meter.

My problem arose because someone did not realise that we had overpaid by £152 and we still had £39 in the kitty. It went back into our account (£152) on the day we received the info that we would be debited for £154 a month for a three roomed bungalow with a small kitchen. Nothing could be done about it at that time of ringing because it was being processed.

Can I speak to a manager? He is in a meeting! When will he be available? The meeting finishes at 5 o'clock.

What time does he finish? Five o'clock.

You will have to ring back tomorrow but he will not be here and we will alter the direct debit then.

Does your boss know how incompetent you sound?

Goodbye.

This advice I offer now applies to all aspects of our financial outgoings.

BEFORE changing over to anything or buying any service or goods (gas/electric/ broadband /fridges) etc go on the internet and find out what is happening to the rest of the UK with regard to what you want.

If I had taken by own advice I would be quids in and not have a lot of rubbish to contend with,

Perkin

No worries mate,

You've done the calculation fine, its most likely a different calorific factor used in the calculations on your bill. It should show you somewhere the number they have used. (39.2 would make 1701.71kWh)

If you really want to find out more about the calorific factor and what it is, you can do so here, its a little technical though..

http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Gas/Data/misc/reports/description/

As a point of reference for your usage, the accepted national average for annual gas usage is 20,500kWh. Based on your October monthly usage of 1701 x 12 = 20,412kWh. (This average is based on a three bed house I believe)

Its your prices that are the problem, those Spark prices aren't very attractive, particularly without the direct debit discount. My best advice would be (and i know this sounds crazy) set up a direct debit with them for ongoing usage only while you dispute the balance. I know this sounds mad but you should take the cheapest price you can from them until this is sorted and you can switch. (they will be unlikely to allow you to switch if you have an outstanding balance, something to be aware of)

Make sure they keep the debt aside while you are disputing it, and let you pay a fixed amount monthly. It'll save you time and money in the long run.

Let me know how you get on..

G

G

Thank you for your quick reply

i did the following maths on what they estimated our gas bill was for oct. 54 units (1701.71) kwh i applied the following calc as above.

54 x 2.83 x 1.022640 x 39.7 / 3.6 and it said 1723.41 now this is is more kwh then original. must i use the above figures or is somthing wrong? i thought it would be reduced?

the meter in question is for gas and is imerial as it measures in ft3

thanks

Hi,

Firstly, and just to clarify, it is only gas meters that record in imperial (cubic feet) or metric (cubic meters). These are measurements of volume, that are converted into kWh for the purpose of billing. There is no such thing as a metric or imperial electric meter, as electricity is recorded in kWh anyway..

To convert gas units to kWh, you need to use the following formula, if you already have a metric meter (cubic meters) you miss the first step ( x 2.83). As a note, the calorific value can change, best to check your bill to see the current one but its usually about 39.something.

gas units used x imperial to metric conversion factor (2.83) x volume conversion factor (1.022640) x calorific value (39.7) divided by kilowatt hour conversion factor (3.6) = kilowatt hours used.

It sounds like you have an imperial meter anyway, I don't think metric ones were even invented in 1989 to be honest.

With you having a 4 dial meter, its unlikely they will be adding another digit to make a "5 dial reading". due to the way your bills are calculated, this would make them far lower anyway. 1 unit on a 4 dial is worth far more than one unit on a 5 dial. (2.83 times more to be precise)

What I was saying about going round to 0000 and this being a problem is if they think your meter has done this but it hasn't. This is very rare and your supplier would have had to overestimate your bills massively and for a long time to get in this position. It doesn't effect your meter when it does go past 0000 though.. in 18 years its probably done about 4 or 5 laps round, as it is intended to do. Some meters have an expected lifespan of over 20 years, particularly older ones.

As far as your usage goes, what are your bills like and do you take readings every day at the same time to make a comparison? you may wish to try taking readings, to see what you are using on a daily basis. Also, when was the last time your boiler was serviced and is it old or new? These things do make a difference if not maintained.

Hope this helps

G

Gabriel

thanks for the info

can you please explain further about the the meter reading part of metric and imperial?

i have a metric elec meter but i think i have a imperial gas meter. it has 4 dias with 1 red one with a red 0 at the end with a red actuall dial with a red hand going round. now from a post earlier i read how having this 4 dial could be the reason for high gas bill as they have to convert it. (anyone know the conversion imperial to metric?) so i understood from that the gas ppl are adding on another digit? at the end or begining? thinking its a metric meter? this meter is i think made in 1989.

now i just seen this red dial go all the way round in 10 seconds! we have no heating on and no cooking on! we do have water heating on but noone has used any hot water in this time it went all the way round. allthough i see out water is on constant! but central heating on off position. should this be right that the red hand go all the way round in 10 secs?

are you also saying that once the dials reach the 0000 position again then there might be somthing wrong with it? as i know for sure it would have gone around a few times. the last time i think it was checked was 18 years ago.

any help would be great.

many thanks

SindyB83:

This is all great information.

Thanks!!!!

This is all great information.

Thanks!!!!

Hi all,

There are a few issues here so I'll put up some info on each and if I miss one, let me know.

Basics about your gas meter and types, large bills..

Here is an extract from another of my posts on a similar subject which might be useful

"In reference to the bill you have, I would suggest a few simple checks that you can perform yourself.

Firstly.. Check the meter serial number on your bill is the same as that on your actual meter. Also look on the meter for a sticker or label indicating the meter has at some point been changed.

The reasons for this are mainly down to 2 things...

1 there are 2 main types of gas meter. a "4 dial" and "5 dial". As the name suggest a 4 dial meter will have four numbers in white which are your reading (also 2 in red but these are not relevant). This meter measures gas per hundred cubic feet. A 5 dial meter has 5 numbers in white (and 3 in red, again not important) and measures in cubic meters. Therefore, each unit recorded on your meter will be worth a different amount dependent on the type you have (or the type they think you have) 1 unit recorded on a 4 dial meter will cost you much more as that represents 100 cubic feet of gas, rather than the 1 cubic meter a 5 dial would record. If you have a 5 dial meter and the company takes these readings and calculates your bills based on a 4 dial calculation, your bill will be huge.

2 Meters, like all things need replaced from time to time and have a lifespan before they need to be replaced or "re certified". This is not a task carried out by your supplier but rather the shipper of gas to your property. (95% of the time this will be transco) They carry out the change and inform the supplier after it has been carried out, but occasionally these details do not get thru and the suppliers records are not updated. (this is more common than you might think) going back to my first point, 4 dials are older meters (identified with a 6 number serial number) and are most often replaced with a newer 5 dial meter (these have a longer serial no of about 13 numbers, usually starting G4....) If these details are not picked up, you get the above scenario.

Secondly,

How much have your payments been and have they sent a bill in that time? have they read the meter themselves? I ask these as for such a large amount, your meter may have "over-cycled"

This means... when your meter records usage (starting at zero for easy counting, and using a 4 dial) it goes

0001, 0002, 0003 and so on till it gets to 9999.. at this point it goes back around to 0000 and keeps counting. Depending on your readings, they may think, or their records might indicate, you meter has over-cycled. (for info once round a 4 dial dial meter is easily 8k and over on new prices) If they have overestimated your bills previously, their system may be so far ahead it thinks you have gone past the 0000 point, when in reality, you haven't."

hope that helps a bit

If you have received a large "catch up" bill

If you have received a large catch up bill due to faults on behalf of your supplier in either not billing you or using very low estimates, under Ofgem regulations, they are only allowed to bill you back for 12 months of the shortfall of payments v usage. An extract from one of their reports reads...

And the full report this is from can be found at the link below, the extract is from page 10.

http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Markets/RetMkts/Metrng/Metering/Documents1/16915-2207.pdf

If you are not having any success, you may wish to contact the new consumer group "consumer direct" who have replaced the watchdog energywatch as of 1 October

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/

See if this helps any of you.

Hi.

I was with Powergen in a previous house and lived there for a quite a few years. I was paying gas and electric but for some reason (only Powergen and God knows!) I stopped receiving bills. I had rang them so many times telling them I had not received a bill and they said they would send me one. More time passed and I still hadn't received a bill so I would ring again and so on. Eventually I received a bill from a debt collecting company amounting to over £1300.00. The bill I received was aparently for 14 months. After two years of fighting it I am stumped. They say the bill is actually for 3 years but as I have no record of what I have paid and what my readings are I have to accept estimates.

Anyway, I have this bill to pay because Powergen are completely useless and I just wanted to say thank you for mentioning how you made payments to them. No way do I have that kind of money just lying around and if I did I wouldn't blow at all on a gas bill that should have been sent to me quarterly as I had asked many, many times before. I assume they don't charged interest to pay this off?

Thanks again.

hi everyone with high bills

check that your bills are not estimated as i have just moved from powergen to atlantic and recieved a final gas bill of £1000 because they have estimated my gas bill for 3 years . even though i have phoned them every month to inform them of my meter readings and they have also sent a guy out to read the meter 4 times and paid £45 for gas by direct debit every month they still estimated my bill did not recieve any explanation and was told they where taking the lot from my direct debit and gave me a date . i phoned them to tell them i  could not afford this and i had canceled the direct debit i was then told i had 3 months to pay it i said i could not afford that either finally i got through to a supervisor which told me i could pay it over 12 months still i said no i could not afford this in the end i was given powergens bank account details and told to pay whatever i could afford as it was not my fault i am paying them £10 a month stuff them should have done there job right and sorted my meter readings out

take me about 10 years to pay it off oh well

Thanks to everyone who has taken up this thread.

I am the person who originally put the point up - and in a way I am glad to see other people feel they are in the same position as we are ---- HOW EXPENSIVE is it getting to live in this country in general... I am sure that someone some where knows when I have an extra tener in my pocket and divises a plan to get it off me !!

What is the best £ per unit at the moment?

I did call to requestion and all they wanted to do was upt up my DD to 135.00 per month for gas and elec to cover my comsumption and how was I going to pay the outstanding balance - another example of policing those who try to make the effort to get things sorted out.

Cheers all - I will keep fighting them