Hi Sarah

That's not long for a pump, but it can happen. IF you have a lot of dirt in the system then it could cause premature failure.

Next time you call them just say that the pump is squealing and it needs replacing.

All the best

Ian

s4simo:

There is an interesting thread in another consumer forum reporting successful legal action. Not allowed to post a link here but Google for "British Gas & Power Flush" and take your pick.

Hi Ian,
BG said the heat exchanger need replacing ONLY because of the squeal. He did not offer any other reason for the noise.
Since Jalexas comments when I turned the pump down to two (horizontal lines) from 3 the squealing has stopped, and this morning we still have hot radiators and water, so can can only assume that doing this has not adversely affected anything in the heating system.
We had a new pump in 2001 when we moved in - would this be about the right timespan of a pump?
Now I need to check if a new pump is covered on BG homecare - I am guessing not. Would love to speak to someone but since I rang last Thursday to ask someone to call me back I have heard nothing despite chasing them up.
Thanks Sarah

Hello Sarah

Try this - wait until you hear the squeal. When you hear it, turn the speed dial on the pump halfway between two speeds. With any luck the pump will stop working altogether. do you still hear the squeal? If not, then come waht may it;s a good idea to replace the pump - it's on it;s way out.

I;ve just re-read your original post. Exactly why did BG say you need a new heat exchanger? If it was just because of the squealing noise then its EXTREMELY unlikely to be anything to do with the heat exchanger.

Good luck and best wishes

Ian Pritchard

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s4simo:

So I did as you suggested and turned the dial on the pump down from three horizontal lines to two.....hey presto no squeal!!!!!!! Don't know what this means, but before I turned the pump down it was really hot - don't know if this is normal as I don't have a intimate relationship with my heating pump normally!! Also I don't know what effect turning the 'pump down' has but at least the high pitched noise has stopped.....for

Turning the pump down makes it turn slower and pump less. It's not impossible that turning it down caused it to stop. You would know if the boiler cut out shortly afterwards, and wouldn't restart. I'm not particularly surprised the pump is hot since the water it is pumping is very hot. However if it is hotter than the pipes on either side of it something is wrong.

IMHO, on the face of it, the pump is faulty. Whether the heat exchanger is also faulty I cannot say but since I believe, in the absence of prior advice about powerflushing, it "may" be covered under the contract that is neither here nor there.

Try to get Huckster's advice because he is the Insurance expert and Homecare is an insurance policy.

My original reading remains the same. There is a pre-sale exclusion regarding "removal" of "sludge" or "hard-water scale", something repeated in the T&Cs but then (in respect of "sludge" only) is qualified by the requirement for BG to have pre-advised a need for a powerflush. Which you assert they didn't.

Actually the real issue is whether the BG diagnosis is (1) heat-exchanger and (2) if so whether "sludge" or "hard-water" scale is the problem. I do not believe that can be determined without an inspection of the heat-exchanger internals.

Anyway I "think" the pump is faulty.

Hi Jalexa,
I have turned the temp up on the boiler in the utility room, and in the temperature gauge on the hot water tank (from 40 degree c to 60). The squealing started to come from the airing cupboard (that houses the hot water tank and the pump) within a couple of minutes.
So I did as you suggested and turned the dial on the pump down from three horizontal lines to two.....hey presto no squeal!!!!!!!
Don't know what this means, but before I turned the pump down it was really hot - don't know if this is normal as I don't have a intimate relationship with my heating pump normally!!
Also I don't know what effect turning the 'pump down' has but at least the high pitched noise has stopped.....for now lol
Thanks for your continuing help

s4simo:

I'm really struggling to see a connection between a "squeal" in the airing cupboard and "faulty" heat exchanger in the utility room but then (1) I am not a heating engineer and (2) I don't stand to make any money out of being wrong.....

I would suggest the following test. Get the system to start "squealing" then turn the pump switch from 3 to 2. At the instant you switch does the pitch of the "squeal" change?

I could have gone with "hard scale" in a secondary heat exchanger (which you don't have, and possibly a very good reason not to be talked into a combi!) but not the primary heat exchanger because fresh water does not continuously flow, only the same Sentinel inhibitor dosed water. (except that the system maintainer (BG Homecare) may have neglected to ensure inhibitor effectiveness)

On the face of it I would say it was a pump problem, though I stand to be corrected. Please do not feel "dumbed down" because I could understand if you didn't want to do this but I think the BG man should have done. He should have removed the big silver screw on the pump and checked for free rotation of the pump impellor.

To go back to your original point. IMHO the contract covers "heat exchanger sludge" in the absence of previous "powerflushing" advice. IMHO it's impossible to diagnose "hard scale" over "sludge" until the heat exchanger is removed.

I'd put your "repair demand" to BG, and if you are not satisfied after Complaint take the issue to the Financial Ombudsman Service. That will cost you nothing but BG Homecare a £500 case fee regardless of the outcome. It would be cheaper for BG to replace the heat exchanger (if that is really what they think the problem is). A heat exchanger costs about £200 online, less to BG.

Hi Jalexa,
My boiler is in the utility room (Suprima 80)
The maroon pump sits next to the hot water tank in the airing cupbroad.
There is also a large black 'feeder type tank' in the loft (apologies for the description ...if it wasn't painfully obvious I am not a heating engineer!)
As for the 159/03 I too would guess this was 2003. I cannot find any paperwork relating to this so guess it was done as part of our annual service, or during one of our breakdown callouts - we have had two actuator values and a timer
The high pitched squeal comes from the airing cupboard that houses the hot water tank and the pump. We can only reduce this noise by turning down both the temperature on the Suprima boiler and the temperature gauge on the hot water tank itself (currently set at 40degree c), which gives limited hot water
We also had a new pump in 2001 when we moved in. The house had been empty for a while and the system drained.
As for the question of hard water I have put my postcode into a 'hard water area checker' on the internet - who knew they existed! and it shows 'very hard water' - ?I guess this is right but is on a sight selling limescale remover so who knows!
Many thanks again for your time and expertise
Sarah

s4simo:

Some interesting new info has surfaced thanks to the previous poster. It's not a combi so only one heat exchanger. ( I had assumed you had a combi installed in the airing cupboard in place of the cylinder).

Can you clarify that your boiler is eleswhere eg kitchen, whether the high pitched squeal comes from the boiler or the airing cupboard and where is the pump located?

I have a few more thoughts on this. (1) is the same thought that after 12 years you should be prepared in principle to get a new boiler (and "budget" for a replacement every 10 years or so). Next, I'm intrigued that the Sentinel dosing label says "15/9/3". I'm assuming 2003. I don't know whether advice about maintaining inhibitor effectiveness is included in the BG Homecare 200 service and inspection spec but I personally would consider lack of advice on that subject to be "negligent omission". It could have a direct bearing on your problems.

Finally, if you decide on a new boiler it will be VERY difficult to avoid being sold a powerflush. At least if you get quotes clarify the extra cost involved. I'm not a huge fan of powerflush preferring to rely on something called Magnamate and maintaining inhibitor effectiveness but given the age of your system it probably is merited in your case. It's "possible" that a powerflush would improve your heat exchanger.

But nobody will promise.

And of course your original question around whether the heat exchanger problem is "hard scale" or "sludge" is now a very open question given the inhibitor dosing advice "negligence". BTW do you knowingly live in a hard water area?

Hi Ian,
Many thanks for taking the time to reply.
These are the 'bits' that we have;
Boiler - Potterton Suprima 80. This has a temperature guage that ranges from 'max' to 'off'. We have now turned this down to halfway between the two.
Hot water tank - Lnadis and Gyr. The dial on this tank which is in the airing cupboard has been turned down to 4o degree C. It has a sticker on it with 'Sentinel x 100 heavy duty inhibitor 15/9/3)
The pump is as you say maroon in colour - Grundfos. There is a dial on the side with one, two and three horizontal lines on it - this is currently set to the three lines.
The high pitched squeal has been reduced by us turning down the temperature on the boiler and the temperature dial on the hot water tank. However, this does mean the water is not very hot. But, I am reluctant to spend money on something which does not solve the problem.
Many thanks again for your expertise
Sarah

Hello there. I am a experienced heating engineer running a company that specialises in powerflushing. I have very little experience of the contract details that BG and others operate.

s4simo:When the heating and water is on we hear a high pitched 'squeal' from the airing cupboard. When the pump on the boiler is turned down on the temperature on the controls this seems to reduce although everything is more inefficient i.e. it takes longer to heat water

It sounds like you do not hav a combination boiler because you talk about the 'airing cupboard'. This suggests that you have a hot water cylinder and a heat-only boiler. High pitched squealing might well be coming from the circulation pump. If so, it could be running partially dry which it should not be. I suggest that you check the temperature of the pump, which will be either maroon, blue or silver in colour - be VERY careful when doing this - if it is much hotter than the pipes going into it then it is running at least partially dry. Probably a blocked feed pipe from the feed and expansion tank and that would need looking at.

IF you have a heat only boiler (post the make and model of boiler and I can confirm what type you have) then it is unlikely that the heat exchanger needs replacing.

In any event, before you hand over any money to BG, please insist that they send a senior technician to see you beforehand. Do not mention to them what you have already been told and if they ask just say "I'd prefer to hear your own diagnosis please."

IF you need a powerflush - shop around, but be VERY wary about going for the cheapest quote. To do the job properly it needs some time spent on it with the right equipment. A local independent will be cheaper than BG. And any competent powerflush specialist will be able to give you a certificate to prove that the job has been done to a standard that exceeds the British Standard for cleaning a domestic heating system.

Hope this helps.

All the best

Ian Pritchard

Hope this helps.

We are having to boost the water to get sufficient. I did ask him about a new boiler but he said it would be about £2,500 and as our boiler is rated 'D' he said to get the heat exchanger instead (wouldn't recoup the savings). I may be paranoid but feel that as a female I was being 'dumbed' down to.

s4simo:

Hard to say. If you are still getting enough hot water I'd live with it.

IMHO it's not worth spending £450 on a 12 yo boiler. That's more than the annual depreciation on a new boiler (which would be a condensing boiler and therefore reduce your energy costs).

If you decide to replace don't take the BG price without speaking to an independent installer. Chose a make with a manufacturer's service organisation, eg Worcester Bosch or Vaillant.

Hi Jalexa,
Dont know if it helps but the engineer left a quote which states '80,00 BTUs heat exchanger' in he description of works

Jalexa,
Thanks for your comments. The BG engineer only stated a heat exchanger was needed but did not say which one. However when he was here it only seemed to make this squealing noise when we boosted the thermostat and had the water and heat on.
ps the system is 12 years old