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Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

Last post Wed, Nov 18 2009, 1:51 PM by redforever. 28 replies.
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  •  Wed, Nov 18 2009, 1:51 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Hi Stubie-One,

    Halifax have currently passed the debt on to a debt collection agency. I wondered if you would mind tasking a look at the documents linked below.

    What is my next move ?

    Thanks

    Redforever

    http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad179/redforever/halifaxside1.jpg

    http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad179/redforever/halifaxside2.jpg

    • Post Points: 5
  •  Fri, Oct 30 2009, 11:07 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Nearly all CCCs send the standard letter quoting the Regs which allow a copy agreement with no signature, even when they send one with your signature!

    Yes it's confusing but what I see is an enforceable agreement.

    • Post Points: 5
  •  Fri, Oct 30 2009, 6:32 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Hi basa48,

    The 8 page document is clearly headed 'CREDIT CARD AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974' and then states 'This is a copy of your agreement for you to keep'. It has every detail that it should have to comply with all the right regulations (including all the t&cs), but is as previously stated dated 1/10/08. The letter attached says in it :

    "The copy of the agreement enclosed with this letter complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (the "Regulations"). Regulation 3(2)(b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature. In summary we are not required to produce a copy with your signature on it. . By providing a copy of the agreement complying with the requirements of the Regulations the agreement remains enforceable"

    I think they are refering to the reconstituted version of the executed agreement (the 8 pages), and the signed document is an application, why else refer to not being required to provide a copy with a signature on ?

    It is all a little bit confusing really !

    Thanks for your honest and valuable help thus far Basa48

    Redforever

    • Post Points: 20
  •  Fri, Oct 30 2009, 3:43 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    As far as I understand the so called '4 corners rule' can include the reverse side of the signature page. It would be very difficult to prove that the document sent did not have all the prescribed terms in the reverse side, particularly as the application side of the form is clearly visible through from the t&cs side.

    I also read that "the information below was provided by you in your application". This reads as though this is the agreement for you to sign - the creditor having pre-approved it via your previous application.

    The 8 page document you refer to is probably the general terms & conditions and is not vital in terms of enforceability. Although strictly speaking the 8 pages t&cs should have all the schedule 1 info. and be referred to from the application, a lack of this would not be fatal to the agreement.

    Sorry if this is not what you want to hear and others may disagree and find reason to dispute it, but I would not take that into court to claim unenforceable.

    • Post Points: 20
  •  Fri, Oct 30 2009, 3:24 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Thanks for your reply Stubie-one.

    As im sure you have seen I have posted the links to the documents above, and have added some comments in my reply to basa48,

    Regards

    Redforever

    • Post Points: 5
  •  Fri, Oct 30 2009, 3:02 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Hi basa48,

    The first page was the only one I signed , to send back and get a card, at that point I hadnt got a card or even an account with them. If im not mistaken shouldnt there be an agreement once an account is created, and shouldnt there be all the terms and conditions you have listed above contained within the document ? I think this page is the application form they refer to in the letter, with t&cs copied onto the back. I have read elsewhere on the forum of the '4 corners rule' and about a cca containing the lenders signature also. Surely this is no more than a pre approved application form.

    There was another 8 pages of a document headed " CREDIT CARD AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974" which I beleive is the current reconstituted version of the executed agreement they refer to, and is dated 01/10/08. I think this is the agreement with which they beleve they have complied with the regulations.

    Redforever

    • Post Points: 20
  •  Fri, Oct 30 2009, 1:49 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Oh dear .... unless I am very much mistaken, that it a fully compliant agreement and enforceable.
    • Post Points: 20
  •  Fri, Oct 30 2009, 12:49 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Hi Stubie-One and Basa48,

    Thanks for your replys. Your comments are what I expected, that they are not complying.

    The document does however contain my signature, as it requested me to do so and return.

    I have at last mastered the uploading of scans to photobucket so I have put the links below

    to the documents we are talking about for you to look at. Hope it works !

    Thanks

    Redforever

    http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad179/redforever/halifaxside1.jpg

    http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad179/redforever/halifaxside2.jpg

    • Post Points: 20
  •  Fri, Oct 30 2009, 9:38 AM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    redforever:

    I have requested a copy of the original signed application form from the relevant department. You will receive this shortly under separate cover.

    Waiting with baited breath!

    Don't expect it to ever turn up

    redforever: By providing a copy of the agreement complying with the requirements of the Regulations the agreement remains enforceable.

    Rubbish, it clear the default, that is all. Only the courts can determine enforceability.

    The letter is standard fare from Halifax, I've seen several of them, even got one myself.

    They didn't pursue it with me, just passed the debt to collectors so back on the merry go round with P2C.

    It is just posturing from Halifax, they just aren't as good at it as some of the others.

    S

    • Post Points: 50
  •  Thu, Oct 29 2009, 9:20 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    redforever:

    What is a reconstituted version, and is it legal ? It looks like a shortened version of the application form which I had to sign and return to them, with a photocopy of terms and conditions on the back, clearly two different pages copied onto one.

    Redforever

    It is exactly what it says in the letter ... a 'made up' version of what they are trying to convince you you signed.

    As far as s78 is concerned, yes it is legal, but they have covered their backs by admitting it is 'reconstituted'. To pretend it is a copy of your agreement (minus your sig) would be tantamount to fraud, certainly a 'misleading action'.

    However it is no use at all in court for enforcement....unless they do find the original signed agreement and it does take the form they have suggested with this 'mock up'. Mind you, even that could backfire. If they do find your signed agreement and it doesn't look like what they have sent as a look alike 'mock up' they are going to look pretty stupid.

    I'd be pretty pleased if I were you at this stage.

    • Post Points: 5
  •  Thu, Oct 29 2009, 4:48 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Dear Basa48,

    Thank you for the reply.

    No sooner than I had typed the letter above a reply from halifax arrived.

    I write in response to your request for a copy of your consumer credit agreement under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA).

    I have enclosed with this letter a copy of your current reconstituted version of the executed agreement and a signed statement of your account. I have requested a copy of the original signed application form from the relevant department. You will receive this shortly under separate cover.

    The copy of the agreement enclosed with this letter complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (the "Regulations"). Regulation 3(2)(b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature. In summary we are not required to produce a copy with your signature on it. . By providing a copy of the agreement complying with the requirements of the Regulations the agreement remains enforceable.

    By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfied our obligation to provide a copy of the agreement under Section 78. As such, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondence with you regarding the requirements relating to the provision of copy agreement. If you are using the services of a claims management company we would like to remind you of the recent warnings issued by the Ministry of Justice and Citizens Advice Bureau. You can find more details about both at:

    http://www.justice.gov.uk/news/newsrelease170209a.htmand http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/press 20090217

    The Ministry of Justice headline reads "Businesses that mislead the public by claiming they can arrange for unpaid loans, credit card debts or other consumer debts to be written off have been told to stop or face action Justice Minister Bridget Prentice said today, as new guidance was issued by the Ministry of Justice".

    Finally, we must remind you that failure to make payments under this agreement will result in collection activities and any default may also be reported to Credit Reference Agencies.

    Yours sincerely

    It contains what they describe as "a copy of your current reconstituted version of the executed agreement ".

    What is a reconstituted version, and is it legal ? It looks like a shortened version of the application form which I had to sign and return to them, with a photocopy of terms and conditions on the back, clearly two different pages copied onto one.

    Redforever

    • Post Points: 35
  •  Tue, Oct 27 2009, 3:41 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    huckster:

    My advice is that if you have a complaint to make to Halifax, is to send a formal complaint letter by recorded delivery to their Chief Executive. If your complaint is valid, you may be surprised by their response. If Halifax have made any mistakes, the CEO's office could decide to write the matter off. Optimistic but you never know.

    Huckster

    Ha....when I complained to a company CEO (admittedly about their non payment of a judgement AGAINST them !) they immediately applied for a set aside !! LOL !!

    • Post Points: 5
  •  Tue, Oct 27 2009, 3:25 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Try something like this:

    Dear Sirs

    Account number

    On [dates] I wrote to your organisation via Royal Mail recorded delivery, requesting that you supply me a copy of any agreement for the above numbered account that bears my signature.

    I note that to date I have not received a reply from your company nor have I received a copy of any agreement pertaining to the account. In view of the circumstances I do not feel it unreasonable to ask for this document to be disclosed, it is not commercially sensitive nor is it a restricted document and should be easily accessible for an organisation such as yours. Therefore I would ask that you provide me with a copy of the contract that bears my signature. I require the complete document with all its constituent parts.

    Until such time as the requested documents are provided I do not acknowledge any debt to your company and am not obliged to offer any payments simply in response to requests for payment.

    Please confirm by no later than [date] that you will comply with my request or if you cannot or will not comply, please provide your reasons in writing.

    Regards

    You should also consider a SAR to the CCCs Data Protection Officer. As Stubie says look up the correct address on Halifax's web site.

    • Post Points: 20
  •  Tue, Oct 27 2009, 2:17 PM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Hi Basa48,

    Thanks for your reply.

    As yet I have not sent a sar request, just the cca request and then

    a second letter stating that the account was now in default as they have

    failed to respond to my request. Both letters were sent recorded delivery

    and both sgned for, and neither letter received any reply.

    I have since received the default notice and wondered what sort of reply

    I should make, if any, and should I send a sar request at this time ?

    • Post Points: 20
  •  Tue, Oct 27 2009, 11:36 AM

    Re: Halifax credit card agreement – Help !

    Halifax have a seperate department handling SARs. Any letter relating to data protection shopuld go there.

    Send it anywhere else and it goes in the bin, recorded or not.

    I will look up the address but if you give Halifax customer services a ring they will give you the right address.

    S

    • Post Points: 5
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