Hello,

I have requested a signed agreement from my credit card company. The have sent me a copy of my application form (one page, front and back) and a partial copy of terms (one page front and back only listing sections 4 -11)

One section of the application states:

The consumer credit act 1974 lays down certain requirementf for your protection which should have been complied with when this agreement was made. If they were not, we cannot enforce this agreement with getting a court order. The act also gives you a number of rights:( then lists 3 things)

then the declaration box:

I apply for a Suite Card to be issued to me. I accept and agree to be bound by the terms and conditions of the Suite Card and any amendments there to and as set out separately in the copy of the agreement.

Now there was no other pages within the application form.

So my question is? Do I infact have a right to request the debt is cancelled?

Is anyone able to view a copy of my application and advise me best what to do next?

Many thanks for your help as the info just go way over my head.

xoxo Linda

Hi

So my question is? Do I infact have a right to request the debt is cancelled? Not yet, you should only do this if you are on safe ground that it is an unenforceable agreement.

What you can do if you wish is to scan a copy of the agreement, add to photobucket and then add a link to another post. There are some experts on this forum who should be able to take a look and offer their opinion. When you post a copy of the agreement/application, just remember to remove all personal information.

Also when you post back, confirm the date the credit card was taken out and how you applied for it e.g. post, internet.

Huckster

limeyandyank:

So my question is? Do I infact have a right to request the debt is cancelled?

You can request all you like but perhaps what you are (or should) be asking is "if it's demonstrated to be unenforceable will it be cancelled"?

A: Probably not.

Thank you for your replies.

Ok so, is my agreement an unenforceable agreement?

Myself and my husband applied for the credit cards in the airport about 15 minutes before boarding a plane.

The sales ladies help to fill out the application forms as we were in a rush. Dated Feb 2006.

Link to front page application

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt121/limeyandyank/applicationside1.jpg

Link to back page application

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt121/limeyandyank/applicationside2.jpg

Link to copy of terms sent page 1

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt121/limeyandyank/termsside1.jpg

Link to copy of of terms sent page 2

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt121/limeyandyank/termsside2.jpg

I hope this information is helpful.

xoxo Linda

Linda

I cannot see the Apr % interest rate in the documents. Are these the only papers that were supplied?

My understanding is that if the Apr % interest rate is not shown, the agreement is not enforceable.

Hopefully some of the experts on this issue will have a look and add their comments about the form. Also their comments about what letter they would advise that you send would be helpful. There are some letter on the debt forum which challenge the companies to provide a copy of a valid CCA and not just the agreement.

Huckster

Huckster,

There is no official APR% listed. The photocopy is not a very good one. But on the lower right hand side is a picture of a credit card and underneath is ... typical 14.9% APR (variable).

and yes, those were the only two pages sent to me.

I hope as you said those that are more in the know will reply to my post.

I am not sure what to do next and they will be pestering me soon for payment.

xoxo Linda

Linda

You should keep paying atleast the minimum payment until you know whether you are in a position to contest enforceability.

Huckster

huckster:

I have been chasing Sainsbury's Bank for a copy of my CCA agreement. Initially they sent me a general CCA agreement which did have an APR figure, but, this was not the APR that was relevant when I signed with them. After pressurising them I have today received a signed copy of my Agreement dated May 2001. However it does not contain three of the most important items of information which should show on the Agreement document.

There is no reference to REPAYMENTS, RATE OF INTEREST, OR CREDIT LIMIT.

They state that by providing me with these copies they have satisfied their obligation under section 78. They also state that there is no requirement under Section 78 to provide me with a copy of the original signed agreement. They also state that they can confirm the reverse of the agreement contained the prescribed terms required under the CCA and this can be proved by the documents provided previously. (I have to confirm that no documents were supplied previously, and I do not have the reverse of the agreement !!). They then state that they will not be providing any other documentation, as we have fulfilled our obligation under section 78.

The regulations define what is required of a "copy". Whilst regulation 3 provides "every copy" of an executed agreement....shall bea true copy." Regulation 3(2) (b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature.

Now go away you nasty little person and leave us alone to do what we like !

I acknowledge that interpretations can differ, but, from what I have read the CCC's appear to read into the CCA 1974 Act completely differently to everything I have read to date. I am now undecided whether to take this further.

Linda & Brunswick

The following in italics was posted by conmankiller on another thread, which may be helpful. The points relates to all forms of CCA, so some points will relate to loans, rather than credit cards.

Obviously I cannot see all the details on your papers, as some is missing from the scan.( it is greyed out). But have a good look for yourself. I could not see the amount of credit. Did they apply an initial limit. If not this could well be an application form and not an enforceable CCA.

"It is a statutory requirement that CCA-regulated agreements should be in writing and signed by the borrower and that they contain the following information:

The amount of credit (or credit limit)

The credit charges

The rate of interest and whether it will vary throughout the course of the agreement

A notice of cancellation (if it is a cancellable agreement)

Details of the repayment schedule

If the agreement is not in accordance with the above requirements then it is unenforceable.

A credit agreement should also include the following (although if it doesn't then permission from the court will be required to enforce it):

A prominent heading describing the type of agreement

Names and addresses of the lender and borrower along with a signature box

Details of any security offered for the loan

Description of goods supplied if any

Cash price of goods or services

Amount of deposit

Annual Percentage Rate (APR)"

Once you have had a chance to study the documents, post back your thoughts on whether any of the points relevant to a credit card application are missing. Personally I could not see a credit limit shown.

If this is the case, there are some good letters on this site, to send to the CCC, to contest enforceability and ask for the corrrect CCA document to be provided.

Huckster

PS Brunswick. Why don't you write a letter back (recorded delivery) to the CCC's head of compliance and ask why these important points e.g credit limit are missing from the document sent to you. Ask them to comment on the enforceability of such a CCA without these details. They may send you a proper response.

Brunswick:

The regulations define what is required of a "copy". Whilst regulation 3 provides "every copy" of an executed agreement....shall bea true copy." Regulation 3(2) (b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature.

FWIW, while I tend to lurk on the fringes of these CCA questions, my interpretetation of the term "true copy" is that it is not a literal "copy" of the original agreement but a copy (or freshly created "duplicate") of the master document which prevailed at the time of the application, except that original Terms & Conditions may be replaced with the latest advised version of the Terms & Conditions.

I hope that somebody who understands that better will put me right.

If you want to see a "literal" copy of any CCA held you need to make a £10 Subject Access Request.

(ignoring the very unlike Huckster flame contained in Huckster's quote)

Anyway even if the debt is unenforceable it is unlikely to be easy cancelled.

So leaving anybody in these circumstances to go away ignoring well meant advice about the credit file consequences.

Jalexa:

If you want to see a "literal" copy of any CCA held you need to make a £10 Subject Access Request.

(ignoring the very unlike Huckster flame contained in Huckster's quote)

Anyway even if the debt is unenforceable it is unlikely to be easy cancelled.

So leaving anybody in these circumstances to go away ignoring well meant advice about the credit file consequences.

Jelexa

Agree with your comments about the process. Re the flame comments, I presume you meant that it did not contain a warning about consequence of going down the unenforceability route. I presumed that the posters are aware of this.

I see no harm in enquiring about enforceability, if that is what someone wants to do. If does not remove the debt, so they will continue to be affected by problems with their credit record/rating. And some creditors will still sell the debt on ignoring or disputing the issue, meaning years of hassle with demand letters/phone calls/doorstep collection.

An unenforceable debt is not the same thing as a written off debt. Debts can only be written off by the courts and at the discretion of the creditors. If a person is struggling to pay a debt back, they should really be getting advice from Citizens Advice or similar organisation, to find out about the best course of action. There are other ways to deal with debt, rather than getting a company to admit that the debt is not enforceable. Most companies will never admit to this as it will wreck their chances of obtaining a court judgement and possibly hinder selling the debt on.

It is up to limeyandyank and Brunswick to decide on what they wish to do.

Huckster

Huckster,

This application form is the only form we signed. We went on holiday and the cards arrived about 3 weeks from the application date.

I don't understand the point of sending another recorded delivery with £1 post order asking for the correct CCA document as this is the only document we signed.

I'm sorry the scanned copy on the website isn't better quality, but the copy they sent me isn't much better.

Not to confuse the issue, but the collector of the debt is called by a different name now. They took over the credit card company about a year or more ago. ~First they said that the company was changed and you could still use the cards. Then about 2 months later they sent letters saying that we could no longer use the cards but just wanted to collect payments and still sent statements like usual. I wonder if they forsaw this coming....

So basically The company collecting the debt is trading in a different name and I deninately have no binding contract other than that they sent a letter with the documents requested.

Letter they sent:

Thank you for your correspondence, requesting a copy of your credit agreement. Please find this enclosed. As you know our client, BBVA, has instructed us to recover payment of the balance of the debt. We would like to discuss your account with you, so that we can come to an arrangement for you to repay this balance. Please contact us at your earliest opportunity on the telephone number listed below.

Do you think this is unenforceable and thats why they only sent partial terms as well.

limeyandyank:

Do you think this is unenforceable and thats why they only sent partial terms as well.

No the reason why they have sent you these details is probably down to record keeping. What happens with most large companies is that they scan or film the documents and then send the original forms off to an outside storage company. The outside storage companies will hold the documents in boxes, which contains hundreds of papers for different customers in each box.

So when you request copies of documents, you will only receive the scanned/filmed copy and not the original form. It is only if they took you to court that they would retrieve the original form from the storage company. They need the original signed form if they went to court. The gamble for you is whether they have the original form or has it been lost?

The next step is up to you. Challenge them to provide a CCA with all the enforceble terms or come to an arrangement to pay off the debt. You could send them a cheeky 'without prejudice' (important must contain) full and final settlement offer letter, for a percentage of the debt, if you were in a position to pay a lump sum.

As I said in my previous post, proving an agreement is not enforceable can be a hassle and the debt is not written off. It really depends on how resiliant you are and what plans you may have in the next few years. If the company applies a default against your credit records, obtaining any loans or a mortgage at a decent rate could prove difficult. You could then regret having not paid off the account or arranged a payment plan.

Huckster