Channel 4 tonight Monday 28 April 2008 - Dispatches, 8 pm - "The Mobile Phone Rip-off".

excellent news and work.

the stomach for a fight is not there in a well prepared case.

i would love to hear from shiver, drumster and the rest of the self labelled experts.

Progress at last it seems the networks are beginning to crumble when claims are made at arbitration or in court based on the duty of the principal (the network) to discharge the obligations of the agent (the agent - or dealer). The situation is exactly as it was with bank charges before the idiots who are supposed to represent our interests gave the banks a waiver. To prevent case law being established the banks, and now in the matter of cashback the networks, will settle quickly and quietly.

For this to work in your favour there needs to be reasonable evidence that the dealer held themselves out to be agents for the network. Showing off their logo, signing you up with them etc. and for best chances of success order forms, paperwork, web advertising where the dealer clearly associates themselves with the network as an agent.

It WON'T work where the dealer clearly indicated that the promotion was their own and if you entered into two contracts knowing that the cashback was the responsibility of the dealer. In these circumstances you need to get lobbying!

So . . . there has to be clear indication that it was never made clear or indicated verbally or in written documentation that there would be two contracts. One where the customer pays the network and one where the dealer pays the customer. Many dealers (probably intentionally) fudged this saying that 'this is a T-Mobile deal' rather than this a deal with us the dealer and to get it you have to sign up with T-Mobile . . .

Lastly, for a claim to suceed it is important that a case be supported by as much evidence as possible. Terms and conditions from the time of purchase and more recently, screen prints of web advertising etc. etc. You may not have these but others may and if you ask they may send you a copy.

Then you have to write your case and send it in to CISAS or OTELO which are the arbitration services to which the networks belong or take the matter to court. I suggest the arbitrators - it costs you nothing up front and they tend to err a little toward the customer and, even if your claim fails, you can still go to court having learned where the weak spots are in your argument.

If your network is trying to get you to take a changed contract and you are pressed or forced through lack of cash to accept that is fine so long as you accept in writing saying that you accept under duress of circumstances and on the understanding that your right to seek redress under the old contract is not prejudiced or terminated.

I hope these points in amplification of other discussions and items of news help. Unfortunately short of legislative pressure it will be a matter of case by case and each on it merits. But don't give up. I have seen hard evidence of well presented arguments and evidence securing a result!

Regards, Funforus

will let you know.

no attacks, just friendly advice

I take it from your unprovoked attacks that it was just sb and funforus at this stage representing this post. When is the Dispatches programme?

very well explained funforus(not your real name of course for the not so informed)

drumster life is about striving and sadly in the right direction.

were it not for the people who try and make a difference with action, a lot of past ills would have been still with us.

my friend you should be able to say with your hand on your heart that you were one on the ones' who worked for a change in the right direction.

That's the whole point of doing things for the telly, you can get a really good report, all the background and all the sensation you crave by simply turning the box on . . . . Saves all the trouble of wearing ones fingers out typing only to make targets for trolls to snipe at!

If you have a genuine interest I'm sure you will enjoy watching Dispatches. If not then you will find that, after the meeting, the chat moved to a more appropriate private network of contacts to save the tiptoeing round forum restrictions and time wasted in dealing with trolls and assorted badhats popping out from under bridges and in the undergrowth!

Of course when it comes to action it is individuals that do that. However, as no doubt you are aware if you watched 'Watchdog', the general case against the neworks is building as the inconvenient truths surface.

Best regards (ISTR you don't like love and kisses) Funforus

sb: "Directions to Dispatches meeting and interviewing;

Directions to the church (where the meeting is to be held) are as follows, past McDonalds on your right on Belchers Lane at the island, instead of turning right onto bordeley green rd (Mobile connections), continue straight onto belchers lane, after about 50 yards (after the car yard) you'll notice a church building on your right. Head towards the main entrance and look for any notices marked dispatches.

Look forward to meeting everyone there."

How about a report on the meeting? Which MPs, any celebs there, how many from moneysupermarket and how many in total?

Interesting post so far. I see you are thinking of taking legal action against three networks. Just like you, well done, very ambitious!

Hi sb,

I am having trouble with e2save also with the cashback is is it possible you could mention them please. I had no idea who e2save were, they are Talk Talk. Why doesnt the company we pay our phone calls to which was Virgin, pass on our statements to each other, instead of involving the customer. This is very shoddy and underhand the way these companies are ripping of the consumer.

I am thinking of initiating small claims(County Court) proceedings against
Vodafone, T-Mobile and Orange.
I am going to need all the help I can get.
These cases might become template cases for the rest of us.
So get your thinking caps on and express as to the best way of going forward.

hi all

andrew we missed you. funforus ofcourse was there.

what we need is not scattered shots, but well coordinated well planned precise action. in life like in anything else fine planning is the key to sucess.

not every single person has to comeup with a plan, that is not what happens in reality. it is the few knowledgeable who get together and formulate plans and decide on a strategic course of action.

it really does not matter what forum you are from, the resultant from action will benefit all forums. i honestly wish for the knowledgeable from all forums get together to brainstorm. forget the size of your backside, action(activity/cooperating) is a better thing than inactivity.

my 2 cents.

Directions to Dispatches meeting and interviewing;

Directions to the church (where the meeting is to be held) are as follows, past McDonalds on your right on Belchers Lane at the island, instead of turning right onto bordeley green rd (Mobile connections), continue straight onto belchers lane, after about 50 yards (after the car yard) you'll notice a church building on your right. Head towards the main entrance and look for any notices marked dispatches.

Look forward to meeting everyone there.

i have checked with the church and the hall has been booked.

who all are coming, kindly let me know under my profile and i will only pass your name to the organizers, or will tell you whom to email.

A fascinating development, if you have a look on the thread CSS Mobiles (Bradford) you will see a tranbscript of a letter from T-Mobile telling a customer that whilst it is not them (T-Mobile) that should pay his cashback on the default of the dealer but the Fulfillment House in the middle - the ones who manage the outsourced logistics and processes between the dealers and the networks!!!

They have actually put this in writing seriously suggesting that a company that the customer didn't even know existed and certainly never contracted with is responsible for his plight . . . meanwhile of course collecting everything they can that's due to them under the contract.

My own experience and that of others who have been referred to these not very obvious companies in the middle by Orange (but only verbally, not in writing) suggests that the networks are despeartely looking for fall guys. I had hoped that two or threee of thise companies would send a representative on Friday but, strangely, it seems that pressure is being put on them to stay away . . . I wonder who by and why?

I second Andrew's suggestion that everyone presses their MP to sign the Early Day Motion (EDM 696) - they know what that means, just mention it and ask them to sign it on behalf of aggrieved constituents.

Regards, Funforus

check again in 10 minutes

5pm on 25/01/08 at details previously given.