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Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

Last post Mon, Oct 05 2009, 9:21 PM by wigeon. 8 replies.
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  •  Mon, Oct 05 2009, 9:21 PM

    Re: Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    FormerFP-G:

    But the loan cant be challenged under any form of CCA as its non-reg, over £25k.

    to answer some of your points:

    2) its impossible to get any form of loan that isnt interest front loaded
    3) Making capital repayments is allowed yes. its stated in the T&C's of the agreement about interest charges. Might not be interest charges if you pay below a certain value, might be 10% of the loan balance?
    4) Redemption charges are not an FP thing, its something that is allowed under the regulations on early settlement by the CCA. some accounts are rule of 78, although yours does sound like its 6 months interest + a security release fee/admin charge. again its on the front and back of your credit agreement.

    SAR will cost you a tenner, dont bother. you can get a copy of your CA free from them. just ring and ask for it.
    They arent being obstructive, just sticking to the T&C's that they, and yourself agreed upon (im not saying that they are ethical,illegal fair or unjust, just stating its a contract that the borrower had ample time to get checked out before commiting, and also 30 days after payout to cancel the deal.

    Sorry to be picky but the request under the CCA 74 Section 77 cant be made (not valid) for unregualted loans. So the £1 option is not an option for over £25,000 loans. Wigeon

    • Post Points: 35
  •  Mon, Oct 05 2009, 9:17 PM

    Re: Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    First let me appologise for the nine plus spelling mistakes. Type quicker than I can spell.

    Two points loan could be ruled unenforceable if the PPI can be eliminated. Also could be challenged under the new act

    Section 140/Section 18 -22 Unfair relationships. How much was the PPI policy my guess is in the region of 4500 to 6500

    • Post Points: 35
  •  Mon, Oct 05 2009, 6:37 PM

    Re: Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    Hi All

    Thanks very much for your responses, I have also registered on the first plus complaints forum.

    One of the issues that riled me in particular was the bull that I was fed to get me to take the value of the loan to above 25000. I hope to challenge this under the CCA 74...the loan might be unregulated, but as stated FP really pushed this.

    By the way I took my loan out Feb / march 2007.

    I need to get telephone records ..but from memory the guy selling stated with the better interest rate I would be virtually paying back the same amount anyway...what a crock. True, it is every individuals responsibility to get an agreement checked out..but the fact is I was dealing with barclays here and having banked with them 20 years I simply believed them. Its not like I was buying a second hand car here...I just wrongly assumed they were telling the truth...and expensive lesson to learn.

    I am definitely going to pursue this and again thank you all for your input...much appreciated!!

    • Post Points: 50
  •  Fri, Jun 12 2009, 8:00 PM

    Re: Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    I am sorry to seem difficult or negative but one of theproblems with sites like this is a failure to understand what you are advising on.

    I do see the value of some of the things that are said but I take exception to posts like these. The legislation under the CCA 74 alows for loans that have been artifically made over the 1997 ceiling to be challenged under the act.

    Another point I would make is that if the loan was unregulated then 'ringing them up' would result in nothing. Advice like this will cost people their sanity and in some cases their houses. I see far too much bad advice given out ...........it is plain wrong. 12 months ago I was being told by similar 'experts' that mortgagges in this country could be challenged becuase of the mrotgage deed being used by the lender as a promisory note. I actually know someone who lost their home because of following stupid ideas

    Arfghghghghggh

    • Post Points: 50
  •  Wed, Jun 10 2009, 11:14 PM

    Re: Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    Whilst Former makes some valid points there are other things to consider.

    I have spoken with the FSA and it is possible that a lender can "mis sell" a loan and thus have it declared unenforceable. Without taking this thread down too much of a different route, there is always an element of the "man doth protest too much" within Former's comments. This is part of my current dialogue with the FSA:

    Your letter has indicated that you may have been led to expect that the
    interest rates applied to your FirstPlus loan would be directly linked to
    Bank of England rates or similar rates. If this is the case, you may have
    grounds for a complaint over the sale of your loan.
    I have been looking through various items of literature and this is pretty clear from FirstPlus,Rate Increase - frequently Asked Questions

    Why has my rate increased?
    The interest rate on your loan is variable. This means that your rate could go up or down.

    The way in which our interest rates are calculated is based on the Finance House base Rate (FHBR). Please refer to the terms and conditions on your credit agreement or visit
    www.fla.org.uk for more information. However any changes to the Bank of England interest rates or FHBR could affect the rate we charge our customers.They state also in another point relating to customer information:I wasn't aware my rate was linked to the FHBR. What's this?
    The way in which our interest rates are calculated is based on the FHBR. Please refer to the terms and conditions on your credit agreement or visit
    www.fla.org for more information.Below is typical wording from rate change letters:"The most recent Bank of England decision forces FirstPlus to increase APRs for all accounts from ..."To use an understood market term such as "variable" and to follow interest rate rises from the Bank of England in such a way means that you are lead to believe in a rising market that nothing is untoward. It is not until you are in a decreasing part of the rate cycle that suddenly a different interpretation is seen to apply.They insist now their loan is not linked to base rate but their rates are influenced by:
    • competitor pricing ( vastly changed market place for new loans and FP are not offering new loans, one that they insist their clause allows them but by knowing this they make no effort to explain at point of sale and as such I now formally hold my loan with First Plus as being missold. Had this been explained at point of sale this loan would not exist.
    • house prices are falling - in the last few months some may be falling slightly but over the previous years they have done nothing but increase. As a business that advertised its loans at 125% loan to value then again this is nothing more than a convenient excuse not a formal reason. One where only the negative that suits the lender is applying. When prices were rising and equity was increasing, no rate reductions were being offered due to their "improved security" position. Added to this over time is the fact that most 1st mortgages will have reduced in terms of capital outstanding, so house pricing alone is a complete misnoma. House prices are now going back up, back to the drawing board for that plan of avoidance within FP.
    • they formally advised me that they are unable to explain my rate rises as "these amendments were made as a result of our commercial judgement" - this brings their definition into line with a recent FSA ruling on an investment product where Barclays could change rates "for any good reason"

    Where you were taken into a "non reg" arena would be frowned upon if there is no valid reason to substantiate.

    There are no loans that are interest front loaded. My personal loan with NW isn't. It is interest applied on the reducing balance, as are a number of unsecured loans. Granted most secured loans were put into this "front loaded" arena but when they are variable rate, this does contradict a lot of traditional loan workings, as fixed rate monthly payment loans have a specific amount payable and the apportionment of interest to capital is clear, even using rule of 78. With the mechanism employed by FP, this is far from clear.

    When I took out my loan, I said that I wanted to try and pay it off quickly and was advised, "don't try and settle it within 5 yrs". I talked about lump sum and was not given the 10% chat. I understand that ts and cs are provided and they should be read through. Having worked for a bank I also have to state there is onus on the seller to explain and ensure understanding before signing. The variable rate term and its application is a complete and utter nonsense and I know Former has said "FP are clear it does not breach unfair contract terms"except this reads differently:

    As you state in your response, the ability of a rate of interest to be charged is unlikely to be considered a term under Regulations, however, the actual rate is not the issue. It is the ability of the lender to change ( or not change) this rate to suits its own purposes and to refuse to state how it calculates its rates that makes the bargain one sided in favour of the
    > lender. With regards to the Unfair Contract Terms guidance you pointed me to, the first point that jumps out, underlines all of the above completely,

    "A standard term is unfair 'if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer'- Regulation 5(1). Unfair terms are not enforceable against the consumer. The requirement of 'good' faith embodies a general 'principle of fair and open dealing'.

    1 It means that terms should be expressed fully, clearly and legibly and that terms that might disadvantage the consumer should be given appropriate prominence - see below. However transparency is not enough on its own, as good faith relates to the substance of terms as well as the way they are expressed and used. It requires a supplier not to take advantage of consumers' weaker bargaining position, or lack of experience, in deciding what their rights and obligations shall be. Contracts should be drawn up in a way that respects consumers' legitimate interests. In assessing fairness, we take note of how a term could be used. A term is open to challenge if it is drafted so widely that it could cause consumer detriment."

    It also states,

    "10.4 A term which merely says that variations will only be 'reasonable' or will only be made 'reasonably', is unlikely to be any fairer than one which contains no such qualification, unless there can be little doubt in a reasonable consumer's mind as to what sort of variation, broadly speaking, such wording allows, and in what circumstances. Where the criteria of
    reasonableness are vague, or clearly meant to include the best commercial interests of the business, there will be scope for the supplier to change the bargain unfairly to the detriment of consumers, simply on the basis that he needs to protect his profit margins."

    First Plus will provide no transparency other than quote their clause terms. Had they explained at point of sale the application of their term in practise I would not have agreed to the loan. To simply say "the loan is variable" and then to move it initially in line with Bank of England movements meant I developed an understanding that was expected however it differs greatly from what is now the truth. I would challenge the legality of the sale on this basis as I feel mislead.

    They have refused to disclose this to the FLA and they have told me that unless I can prove maladministration of the loan then the FOS will not be interested in a complaint regarding this matter also.

    I really have no trust in anything that comes out of First Plus as they are doing nothing more than firefighting and covering their own backsides. The fact they have taken advice on Unfair Contract Terms means they have a fear and nothing they can do can make the above read any differently. They have had to have Barcalys put another £9m of share cap in January, I wonder why? I await the publication of their next accounts with interest, have dialogue ready for the Chief Executive and will not rest with them until they have my house or they have compensated me and many others for their application of terms and abuse of our goodwill.

    • Post Points: 35
  •  Wed, Jun 10 2009, 8:10 PM

    Re: Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    But the loan cant be challenged under any form of CCA as its non-reg, over £25k.

    to answer some of your points:

    2) its impossible to get any form of loan that isnt interest front loaded
    3) Making capital repayments is allowed yes. its stated in the T&C's of the agreement about interest charges. Might not be interest charges if you pay below a certain value, might be 10% of the loan balance?
    4) Redemption charges are not an FP thing, its something that is allowed under the regulations on early settlement by the CCA. some accounts are rule of 78, although yours does sound like its 6 months interest + a security release fee/admin charge. again its on the front and back of your credit agreement.

    SAR will cost you a tenner, dont bother. you can get a copy of your CA free from them. just ring and ask for it.
    They arent being obstructive, just sticking to the T&C's that they, and yourself agreed upon (im not saying that they are ethical,illegal fair or unjust, just stating its a contract that the borrower had ample time to get checked out before commiting, and also 30 days after payout to cancel the deal

    • Post Points: 80
  •  Thu, May 21 2009, 10:40 PM

    Re: Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    If you google firstplus complaints you will see where many of us are in a specific forum

    From what you have stated above there are already massive issues.

    In addition to that you may add the commission elements of monies paid to a broker if they were not fully disclosed and currently we are finding out that FP make 40 -70% commission on your PPI, as if charging you interest on th full amount for 5 yrs wasn't bad enough. You are paying interest on their commission!!!

    Anyone looking to increase a loan to take it just above the tolerances of the act is on a really sticky wicket if it can be evidenced. Make sure you get all phone records and do not let them be slow in providing them. If you SAR them and they take over 40 days ( which they are with many) then report them to the ICO, where complaints are also increasing.

    Additionally if you involved a broker they will try to claim "not my fault guvnor" but under the Law of Agency this is complete nonsense, so remind them of their responsibilities....

    Lots to go at for you!!

    • Post Points: 35
  •  Fri, May 15 2009, 7:38 PM

    Re: Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    From the information that you have provided the loan is potentially unenforceable. As long as it is pre 6th April 2007 and also 31st May 2005. I run a company involved in assessing claims of this nature so cannot be absolutely sure but FP loans are well known for their breaking the regulations.

    The loan could also be challenged under the provisions of the CCA 2006 (unfair relationships) the first attack should be made under the CCA 74

    • Post Points: 50
  •  Fri, May 15 2009, 6:10 PM

    Advice needed - Blatantly lied to on First Plus Loan

    Hi there

    I hope someone can give me some good advice on the below.

    Two years ago I made the catastrophic error of taking out a loan with FP.

    I have only recently delved into my payment schedule and realised just how many lies were told to me prior to taking out this loan.

    1. I initially requested a loan of £22.5 K. FP advisors who I believe now were brokers cajoled me into taking out a loan of £25100.00 saying I would get a much better interest rate at that amount. They did not tell me that at this lending value the loan beomes unregulated. Obviously this was a cheap trick to get me to lend this value and doubtless they probably received larger undisclosed commissions.

    2. Secondly I specifically requested that I did NOT want a loan that was one based upon front loaded interest. I asked the guy on the end of the phone this question and he assured me that this was not the case. Another lie...now I have evaluated the past two years payments.

    3. Thirdly I informed FP that I would want to pay the loan off via some lump sums and would I be penalised for doing this?
    You guessed it no this wasnt a problem,no mention of astronomical charges for trying to do this.

    4. Fourthly - No mention of redemption charges throughout the life of the loan, despite me discussing the fact that I would want to pay this off quicker than the 13 year loan term.

    Basically these people must be guilty of gross mis-selling and i just want to know if anyone is in the same boat.
    Can anyone advise me of what to do ...in any other industry you would be probably prosecuted under trades description.

    I guess I could request a SARN and a copy of the credit agreement?

    I don't mind paying the loan....but on fair and just terms.
    I have read other forums in which FP play every trick in the book to be obstructive.
    Ive been a customer of barclays for 20 years...does anyone know if its worth approaching them direct?

    Thanks for reading.

    • Post Points: 65