Lol! You're hilarious!

You know what else I've just discovered? (I've been getting great help here from my techy friend who knows how to work the lot!) Even if I had signed up for this with the full knowledge that I was going to be charged each month - they have still lied as there are yet ANOTHER set of T&C's! So that makes 3 different sets of T&C.

There is the one that you click on in the red banner at the bottom of the page BEFORE you sign up (that's the one that I gave you before in the link)

But, when you're signed in (which means you have had to sign up for this to be able to read them and are bound by their contract) you get a further TWO sets that say two DIFFERENT things!!!!!

Okay, I'll try to make this as simple as I can - once you're logged in, and you click on the T&C's link at the bottom of the page, this is what it says about charges;

4. Personal User Subscription4.1 You may access our powerful people search database for your own personal use for a fee of £14.95 on a monthly subscription basis, subject to our fair usage policy. Your account will be credited each month with 100 credits.

Then look at this! This is what it says if you clikc the T&C's link on the page that signs you up (next to the little box that you have to click, which is what they're using as they're argument against me) Here it is;

4. Personal User Subscription4.1 You may access our powerful people search database for your own personal use for a fee of £11.48 on a monthly subscription basis, subject to our fair usage policy. Your account will be credited each month with 25 credits.

I am sitting here absolutely flabbergasted at the sheer blatant conflicting sets of T&C's!!!

I have screen-shot ALL three of the conflicting sets of T&C's, and I am going to call my solicitor in the morning, we're talking over £200 they've had out of me all due to their misleading information. And after reading that, knowing that they not only are not admitting what they've done, but are only offering me half of these credits that they will be taking back, I'm thinking how incredibly cheeky they are, in fact I'm thinking they should be offering me and apology also and maybe even more, They clearly have different sets of T&C's in order to manipulate their business to whatever way suits them to profit the most!

I can't thank you enough Jalexa, I know some people will think "oh for gods sake, stop moaning" But it's not the point, what would they say to someone who only signed up for credits, then found themselves being charged either one of the amounts above in the conflicting T&C's, when they should only be being charged say £5 per month?

When I was told that they had been following these posts on here, as I said I was shocked, and I thought it was quite odd to say the least, I mean why would they worry if they think they're running a tight honest ship? But as I told the lady on the phone - and I intend to say it here so that tracesmart can see it for themselves...... I have also made a youtube video, letting people know what's happened, and with screen-shots of their "T&C's in.

I hate to see honest decent people being duped, conned or ripped off, and i consider myself to be an honest, decent person. So if i can stop this happening again, aswell as get my money back i will do everything i can. I will not allow myself to be made a fool of and go away quietly (but i think they know that now)

Thanks again! Will update very soon - Chelle xXx

chayyliel:

Also, whilst on the telephone - I was told that they were aware of my posts on here, and that they can see that "most of the people whom replied are siding with tracesmart"

Well that is complete b*ll*x. To date only two posters have replied, myself and mrstella0. At best/worst its 1-1.

My view is clear only because I already knew, having found out previously the hard way, that it was a renewal (except for Solo).

But having looked at the site again today, and read the T&Cs again today, I am shocked to see it is possible to sign up for 5 credits (and from the T&Cs actually be signing up for a 100 credit per month renewal).

I call that misleading.

I don't believe there are absolute rights and wrongs here. Remember two courts thought one thing about unfair bank charges and another court though something completely different. These were all highly trained legal people but had different interpretations of the law.

Chose your argument, and I'm aware that Tracesmart may be lurking (hello there), go full square for the ability to buy 5 yet be renewed for 100. And go full square with Consumer Direct/Trading Standards on that particular point.

Hi - thank you so much for all your help, you really have put yourself out to assist me today, I'm really grateful!

All I know is that when I bought the credits I was under the impression that i was buying a one off purchase like you said (you put it in much better words than I did, so thanks)

But I've had a friend help me today, and I asked her to go on tracesmart as if she were using it for the first time. She got the site up, and as she said before she does anything or even considers signing up to a site that takes your money especially, she would ALWAYS read the T&C's (which not once have i ever tried to say to tracesmart that I read them, I was honest and told them I didn't, but it does give the strong impression that you are only buying a one off amount of credits, I have even bought a couple of 5 credits, and then a 100, why would I do that if I knew that they'd take it anyhow?)

My friend immediately went to the bottom of the home page, where it has links such as "who tracesmart are" and "contact us" etc, but it also has "terms & conditions" which my friend clicked on, and the T&C page she got up says not one thing about a regular monthly payment, here is the link http://www.tracesmart.co.uk/terms-conditions/

In fact, it says not one thing about any subscription whatsoever, and consumer direct agreed with me, told me to inform them of this, and if need be to take it to the small claims court (which I will do through my legal insurance if I have to I feel so strongly about this) But I will also make complaints to the relevant authorities, as I have screen-shots of everything.

I've had a lovely lady call me up after I left a message for her, and she had trouble accessing the link, she kept on getting the "subscription" T&C's but we got there in the end after I emailed her the direct link, and she told me that they were "different" T&C's, that I should be reading the ones that refer to the subscription - but it doesn't make this at all clear, nowhere on the site does it indicate that there are two lots of different T&C's, so even if I had have read them, I would have been reading the wrong ones.

She offered me as a gesture of good will half of the amount of the 600 credits I am left with and only have a few weeks to use them in - which was kind of her, but still I feel is unfair, as tracesmart is a huge corporation for a start - and I feel they need to make the information much much clearer (considering it involves taking money each month) But not only that, as I told the lady who phoned me, "does she really think it's fair that they get 600 credits back, yet I only get 300 credits worth of cash back"? So basically, they're making almost £50 from a normal everyday consumer (who is so beneath the high up management they won't even consider taking a telephone call or email from) - they gain either way.

Also, whilst on the telephone - I was told that they were aware of my posts on here, and that they can see that "most of the people whom replied are siding with tracesmart" I have to say this stunned me slightly! I didn't know that anything we wrote in our own time, on our own internet was being monitored by companies such as tracesmart. But as I said to the lady - just the fact that your corporation has seen my post and been following it, does that not prove I was genuinely mislead, and am seeking advice?

The lady is calling me back tomorrow - as even though she was extremely helpful, and did offer me half (as she said tracesmart never give refunds) I still feel that I have been highly mislead, in fact I'd go so far as to say I feel conned. I have all of the screen shots that I need (including all of the invoices were it is clear to see I willingly purchased the same amount of credits on more than one occassion, so that is proof that I had no clue I was already going to be getting charged)

Oh, and apparantly when you're in the process of making payment - it says that it is a subscription 3 or 4 times (which i am subscribed to lots of websites that sell things, but they don't take money from me each month unless I specifically buy something) But I can categorically state (and will swear on oath, or anything they wish me to) that NOT one thing stated I would be charged every month when I bought these credits.

So I have to wait now for the telephone call tomorrow - and if anyone from tracesmart is reading this? The lady who telephoned me up today was very helpful, polite and patient, it would be nice if all of your staff could be this way.

Thank you for your help bless you, I will keep you updated - Chelle xXx

chayyliel:

Just had a quick look at the Tracesmart website. It's possible (as you know) to purchase 5 credits. Its also possible to purchase other amounts up to 100. That loooks to me a single purchase. The terms and conditions however, only refer to 100 credit monthly membership. Yes it's clear it renews.

What worries me is that "apparently", if I understand the T&Cs, it would be possible to purchase 5 and then end up being renewed for 100.

In my opinion, if I have understood that correctly, that is misleading. Perhaps you should discuss that with Trading Standards or Consumer Direct. Do you have contact with any visual impairment organisation for help?

Are you confirming that you understand 100 is the only subscription possible?

I fully accept that I should have checked my bank statement (or at least got someone to do it for me) But as I said I only have one direct debit coming out each month which ias sky for my TV, phone, and broadband. It averages £70 per month, but can be say £15 less, or £15 more depending on what mobiles or other rated calls I make.

So I know how much goes in, and roughly what should come out - therefore check my balance on the telephone, so because each month the amount is about right I've not thought anything. It was only when a dodgy website selling fake UGG boots tried to take two payments out a few months after I'd cancelled the transaction that I went through each statement on the phone with the bank.

Not having the best eyesight I usually can't read T&C's, but know it's generally based around not abusing the service etc - I didn't think for one moment that they had a right to take a regular unauthorised payment just because I happened to use visa.

All I wanted was either the money back for 600 credits, or the right to take my card off there and be left a fair amount of time in which to use them. But it seems that as soon as I cancel my card/account they will remove all the credits within 24hrs, I just don't feel this is fair - basically they're getting approx £100 for nothing if I do that, so the only option I'm left with is to keep the account running for the next 26-27 days and try to use them all before canceling, which is going to be a total waste.

Also they've told me that I'm not even allowed to give my log in details to my friends/family to use, as if they see that my account is being used regularly from other IP addresses they'll terminate the account for abuse - I really am in a no win situation.

I just feel that they should make it clear in bold writing that when you sign up you're signing up for a regular monthly subscription, and not a one off purchase of X amount of credits, as this is absolutely what I was under the impression I was signing up for.

Thank you very much for your speedy and informative replies, they're much appreciated - Chelle xXx

chayyliel:

FWIW some time ago when I first used Tracesmart I was "conned" by same thing. At the time I don't think it was clear and IIRC I did receive a refund. However since then I think they have clarified the sign-up and knowing what I know now it is clear that it's a recurring transaction. What I can't do is answer whether its reasonably clear to someone who doesn't realise. Up to you to determine. As you now know Solo isn't subject to renewal.

Regarding what to do first, that's easy. Cancel your membership. In my experience that's a straightforward online transaction and you will receive a confirmation email.

Regarding the credits you will lose, I find it hard to understand your concern about that when all the time you have failed to spot the monthly £16 debit on your bank statement.

I don't support recurring payments but it's very difficult to fight the issue when the the customer has ignored so much, and at least in hindsight, the terms and conditions are clear.

Just one thing about cancelling cards. Cancelling cards does not automatically stop a recurring payment. You need to get the organisation to stop collecting and only if that doesn't work contact the card issuer.

I'm surprised that Tracesmart won't stop the recurring payment and still allow the credits to be used. Not saying you are wrong, only that I'm surprised. And dissappointed.

Later edit: spot the difference....

03/2007

Firstly, have you verified this in their terms and conditions?

Secondly, you would have had to, at some point during the joining process for the site, read and accept a couple of lines of text which will usually say something like:

"I agree to let X company take X amount from my bank account each month via Direct Debit". I have a suspicion that this will definitely be there, as I believe that for their terms and conditions to be binding they have to make it obvious to the user that they will be doing this. However, I could, and have been before, wrong.

If this is the case, then you won't get your money back. The best thing to do right now is of course to cancel your membership with Tracesmart.

Hi,

I could really do with some advice and will try to explain this as best as I can without it being too lengthy.

I wanted to trace some family members earlier this year, and signed up at Tracesmart, then I "purchased 5 trace credits" at a cost of approx £4.50 - I used them all in a day, and so bought 5 more. Then I thought it'd be better if I just bought 100 credits at a cost of approx £15.

I found what I needed mostly, and just logged out. Then I needed it again, and noticed there were a few more credits than I'd originally had, but didn't really think much about it (as sometimes on facitlities like this you can get bonus credits if you don't use it)

Then I log in after a few months and I have 630 credits! So now I know for sure that something isn't right. I don't usually scrutinise my bank statements,as I don't have lots of money, and only have sky for everything coming out on one DD, so usually have a rough idea of how much is in the account (which give or take £10-20 is usually £70 per month depending on what mobiles I've called) But on closer inspection Tracesmart have been taking £16 per month out of my account all this time!

I was unable to read the T&C's, but Tracemsart told me I had signed up for a "monthly subscription automatically because of the type of debit card I used" and had I used "solo" or "Maestro" it would have only been a one off payment, which was what I thought I'd originally done, I did not for one minute realise I had bought a subscription.

So - I understand that because it says this in their T&C's that there's not much I can do, however, I want to cancel my card or else they're going to keep taking it out each month, and they have told me that....1;they don't do refunds....2;if i close my account I will lose all credits and 3;if I cancel my card (even say due to my losing it or it being stolen) that they will still remove ALL of the 630 credits, which is almost £100 worth!

So they win either way, so I either must used 630 credits in the next 27 days, or lose the lot, as if I cancel this payment they remove all the credits within 24hrs.

I'm not asking for something for nothing here, I either just want my money back, and they remove the credits, or I want them to stop taking anymore payments, but give me a fair amount of time in which to be able to use them.

Any advice would be brilliant, and I thank you all in advance.

Kind regards - Chelle