I wonder if anyone can help with this slightly bizarre situation. I closed my NatWest bank account in January 2006. I believed it was closed but in reality it seems is stayed open and 'dormant' as I have a loan account with them also and therefore a current account is required, The loan is repaid through another account.

On checking my credit report, I have discovered that the account defaulted on 23rd March 2007 with a bank charge applied on 23rd February. It has taken some quite amazing amounts of digging but I have discovered the cause of the bank charge - an old cheque dated 23rd September 2005 for £50 was cashed (this was for something I bought in Woolworths and then returned but never got the cheque back). I also have a very clear recollection of cancelling said cheque when I returned my cheque book on the 'just incase' basis. Of course now no evidence of this. Obvoiusly, since I thought the account was closed, there was no money in there and by this point the cheque was 2 years old - ish.

I have never received a single thing from NatWest on this - it was only discovered when I got a copy of my credit report and saw the default sitting there.

So I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this - obviously my aim is to get the default removed. The £38 charge has accrued interest and is now £48 and I would prefer not to have to pay this although I could, in a negotiation situation, be persuaded.

Where do I stand on this - will I ever get it removed? Are they allowed to cash a cheque that is 2 years old? Presumably they should have written to me but am loathed to go down the long and painful process of requesting all docs etc. (I forget the technical term.)

All feedback welcome. Many thanks.

Hi

Make a complaint to NatWest with full details. Cheques are only valid for 6 months or a year I think, so cannot be presented 2 years later as you have stated. I have come across situations awhile ago where late payments have re-opened accounts, even though closed by account holders. This is a mistake within the system and processes in use by the bank.

A written complaint to the bank will resolve this matter pretty quickly.

Huckster

Jells Bells:

I hope you will be able to take NatWest to the cleaners.

Just one observations. You said you cancelled the cheque but if the cheque was backed by a cheque guarantee card it cannot be cancelled. That said I do not think it can be automatically paid out if presented after 6 months.

The question about no evidence of what you did is interesting. I would turn the tables and submit a £10 Subject Access Request to see what information NatWest had and what efforts they made to contact you. No evidence no effort.

Thanks to both for your comments. Various lengthy conversations have been quite unfruitful. It seems they are keen to place the onus on me to prove I closed the account. In their glorious system the account was 'transferred to recoveries' in January 2006 - not closed. Since it was with the recoveries team this is their reason as to why no statements etc went out and why there has been no attempt to contact me.

They do not accept that I closed the account and think all my stories of cutting up cards, requesting the balance be transferred etc etc are mere figments of my imagination.

They insist cheques are legal and valid for 6 years and so I have not a leg to stand on there with the cheque being old - a quick google search does seem to support this theory which is rather a shame and I am still in denial about!

They also seem incapable of saying anything other than the charge was valid as there was no money in the account and that consequently the default is valid. I was also under the impression that an account had to be in arrears for a certain amount of time (more than a month) before a default could be applied. Since prior to that the blooming £3 that was supposed to be transferred and wasn't - was still in there & so in credit - there was only 1 month before the default was slapped on. Seems quite harsh - particularly without any letters to let me know.

I had hoped to resolve this over the phone as I know the written route is going to take forever... but that is my next attempt.... any other thoughts also welcome! Thank you!

Hi

Written complaints to the CEO RBS Head office Edinburgh are dealt with quite quickly. Send it by Recorded Delivery. Any complaint to RBS CEO is handed to the Head of the Unit you are dealing with and they have to copy in the CEO with their reply. If you just write to the unit handling your current correspondence it will be dealt with by 'space cadets'.

When you closed the account you should have had a closing statement. Check your records.

Huckster

Jells Bells:

The 2005 Banking Code guidance notes is probably relevent...

Out-of-date cheque

A cheque which has not been paid because the date written on the cheque is too old (normally older than six months).

While it includes the weasel word "normally", if a bank wanted to depart from "normally" it would need to make any departure explicitly clear.

I think this is the perfect type of case for the Financial Ombudsman Service. They are experienced in asking for the bank to substantiate their claims and will make a judgement based on the balance of probability. To take this step you need to have complained formally and to remain dissatisfied after 8 weeks.

Huckster is right that once the complaint reaches head office customer relations it will be treated seriously. This is because the refererence to the FOS will cost you nothing but NatWest a hefty case fee regardless of the outcome well in excess of the cost of settling with you. You should expect all your costs and default removal demands to be met along with at least £100 compo.

Jalexa

The fee the FOS charges banks/Insurers etc is apparently now £450. I suspect the Bank will be wanting to resolve this quickly for Jells Bells. When I had any involvement in complaints I was surprised at the number of times we paid the customer compensation, even when the customer had a weak/invalid complaint. Banks/Insurance companies have a problem with handling volumes of complaints and therefore sometimes they just pay off persistent complainants. They way up the cost of dealing with correspondence, the likelyhood of the customer going to the FOS and if it not worth it, they do what they know will be sufficient to get the customer off their backs.

The FOS is receiving record numbers of complaints and therefore it is no surprise that Financial Services companies want to change the fees system!!

Huckster

Just a quick update on this one... .I have had a response from the Chief Executives office (apparently) - here are the pertinent bits:

"Contrary to popular belief, cheques do not legally expire after 6 months. It is usual banking pratice to consider a cheque to be 'stale' after 6 months, but if this represents a valid debtm the Bank has a contractual obligation to pay the item. The cheque was presented for payment on 23 Feb 2007 but this was returned unpaid., as there were insufficient funds in the account. An unpaid fee of £38 was charged and a letter was sent informing you fo this, however, because you had already had an outstanding debt registered with the Bank, this should not have been debited. I apologise for this error. In view of the problems you are already experiencing with your loan account, I would certainly not wish to add to the stress you have explained you are under. It is for this reason I have arranged for the account to be closed and the balance written off. I will also ensure that your credit reference file is updated and any record regarding your current account will be removed....."

So essentially a good result although it seems a bit odd and ignores the fact I had theoretically closed the account hence why no money and am not sure what the other debt registered means - possibly my loan although not sure what that has to do with it although am not certain I care too much.

One question though - no mention of compensation, should I press for this? Any thoughts on what tack to take? My original letter did mention it. Presumbly they think I am so grateful they have agreed to correct their error, that I will forget about it....

Jells Bells

What you could do is, send a letter thanking them for their reply and the actions they have taken. But then ask why no comment has been made concerning the request for compensation.

Point out that you are keen for the FOS to look into the way in which NatWest has handled the account, in particular the lack of letters issued at the time the cheque was paid and the charges/default were applied. Advise that in view of the stress and inconvenience you have suffered, that you are seeking compensation of £xxx and will be asking the FOS to comment on this aspect.

NatWest will make a judgement about what information they have in their favour, how likely you will complain to the FOS and the £450 they will have pay if you go ahead with the complaint. NatWest and other companies rely on the fact that most customers go away happy that their complaint has been dealt with, very few come back for comp. If you write to them I would not be surprised if you received a cheque for £100, with letter advising that this payment is not any admission of any wrong action but as gesture of good will.

It is worth a go. When you look at the new RBS CEO's salary package of £9m over 5 years, £100 is a drop in the ocean!!

huckster.

Jells Bells:

Just a quick update on this one... .I have had a response from the Chief Executives office (apparently) - here are the pertinent bits:

"Contrary to popular belief, cheques do not legally expire after 6 months. It is usual banking pratice to consider a cheque to be 'stale' after 6 months,

Yes that is a result of sorts and the way that NatWest/RBS try to admit being got without admitting it.

I think the explanation about the cheque is irrelevent. The phrase defined in the Banking Codes is "out-of-date cheque". The word "stale" does not appear in the banking codes. Whatever the legal status of an out-of-date cheque, it's the procedural status which is being challenged, and NatWest have conceded procedural error. Implicitly they have admitted contravention of the banking codes, procedurally a serious issue.

Up to you but what you have sufferred does merit an ex-gratia payment. I don't have the NatWest "tariff" on this. I accepted an unsolicited offer of £100 for arguably a more serious procedural failure so possibly £50 in your case. FYI, the Financial Ombudsman Service case fee that NatWest would have to pay if you don't accept is several hundred pounds so you decide how hard you want to play. I would just phone the letter author on the contact number given who certainly has authority for up to £100. The best argument is to explain that you have sufferred "distress and inconvenience". I guarantee the person you are speaking to understands the phrase and its significance. The point is that they then recognise and award "D&I" without concedeing error, possibly the best outcome all round.

More updates... they wrote back with some haste saying they failed to see why any compensation was due. So I sent off a complainT to the finacial ombudsman. Whether I get anything or not they can pay their £450!

Jells Bells:

More updates... they wrote back with some haste saying they failed to see why any compensation was due. So I sent off a complainT to the finacial ombudsman. Whether I get anything or not they can pay their £450!

Hah, a convert. Welcome to the club.

Who used the word "compensation"? This is quite important. They may be right about that if you didn't lose money but not about your feelings. What you should ask for is an ex-gratia "distress and inconvenience" payment (D&I).

Hi,
After months of fighting over my NatWest current account I have finally won the war and the default removed.
I moved on to trying to remove a default on my loan account - a bit of background:
I began to struggle to pay my loan account some years ago when my partner went into hospital and we had to survive on one salary for 18 months. I set up a repayment plan of £60 a month instead of the original amount which was £91. This was about 3 years ago.
Then one sunny day I discovered a default on my credit report for this loan which they had assured me would not happen and which they had applied a year later. I found out the reason was because they couldn't get hold of me to reset the payment plan (as is due 6 monthly) and so defaulted me. This was simply because I was not in the country for a few weeks but I never missed a payment, they continued to come out of my account on time every month as they always have. When I returned home I had a letter and called them straight away - we re-set the plan - there was no problem and I assumed all was well in the world of NatWest. I never had a default notice from them.
On discovering the default I have set about trying to get it removed by asking them to supply a copy of said default notice as I believe they are required to do. I sent several letters but only got a signed copy of the original credit agreement. Consequently after the last 28 days expired I took the matter to the financial ombudsman as I had said I would if they failed to comply.

I have today received a letter from NatWest stating that I am £749 in arrears. They have no record of a repayment plan in place and are perplexed when I mention the £60 (increased 2 months ago to £65) agreement I have in place through their Triton recoveries team. I have been on hold for 45 minutes whilst they 'investigate' and the results of said investigation were - I should be paying £91 and I have arrears of £749 - which is what it says in the letter which didn't take me 45 minutes to read. I can (as a special favour) make a one off payment of £749 today. Sounds like a great deal!!!

I also have in my possession a letter from Triton dated 16th June stating the agreed repayment plan for this correct loan account number for 6 months from the agreed date (1st July) for £65.

Following the 45 minute conversation with NatWest and their very cagey attitude, I phoned Triton. They informed me they are no longer dealing with the account and it has gone back to a branch level at their request. I asked him why and he trotted off and put me on hold for 10 minutes and came back with the telling question: 'have you made a complaint?'. To which I replied I had and he explained that was the reason the account was back with NatWest. I asked if this meant the repayment agreement was no longer valid and he replied that this was the case.

Where does one start with this? Well for starters I have had no correspondence saying I am no longer dealing with Triton. I have had no correspondence saying the plan is no longer valid. I have just got this ridiculous letter saying from NatWest stating I seem to have missed a payment (exact words) - as if one payment amounts to £749.
And that's before we even get to the fact I am now being discriminated against because I made a valid complaint. Surely they cannot end the repayment plan without any notice as punishment for me complaining??!!

I called NatWest back and asked to speak with a manager - if I am lucky I may get a call back today - but I said I wanted to confirm this was the case and if this was their standard procedure. The lady I spoke to raised no eyebrow.

In my last conversation with NatWest I stated to the very nice lady that I would not be making any further payments on this loan if a manager does not call me back within 24 hours and she had noted as such on my account.

So the very long background leads to these questions:
Because I have made a complaint to the financial ombudsman - can they end the repayment agreement with no notice despite having it in writing? And is being discriminated against like this common practice?
Can I refuse to make any further payments on this account until this is resolved, simply for the fact that they (not I), have defaulted the agreement .
Or is this simply NatWest's clever way of making sure I get a default even if I have the old one removed.....

And of course as ever - do you have any advice?

I am so sick of NatWest - every time I see their adverts on the telly with the little van that will bring your bank to you on the beach or the one promoting the wonders of Saturday banking which they and others have been doing for years, it makes me shout at the TV!

NatWest - helpful banking ...........

Jells Bells

If you don't get a satisfactory response from the NatWest manager, write to the person who dealt with your last head office complaint. They may have had a hand with this, so should explain the situation.

I have a feeling that they are trying to lose you as a customer, so may be willing to negotiate a small sum to write off your outstanding loan.

Huckster

I just thought I would update you all on the latest. Having taken the issues with my current account to the financial ombudsman in regard to possible compensation (but frankly more as a punishment) we have had a result. Instead of the 'we will remove the charges and default as a goodwill gesture' that I managed to get, they have managed to get an entirly different - it is all our fault and we did not handle our error well and we will offer you £200 (afer inital £50 offer).

Needless to say I've accepted. That's one more kitchen unit paid for - I might have a full cupboard with doors and everything soon...

Thanks for spurring me on! Was worth it in the end!