Hi Nixxy,

All other things aside, and really for the benefit of the people in the background who read these threads but don't participate but might be considering this as an option.

Its good to see you being realistic.

Anyone who sets out on this course of action can expect to go to hell and back over 6 - 12 months.

Its not a question of writing a few letters and the CCCs will say:

"Oops, sorry Mr XXXX

We didn't know we were acting illegally. We will stop now, write off you balance and never bother you again

A cheque is in the post for your interest and charges

All the best, we've added you to our christmas card list.

CCC Inc."

These companies are bullies, they know exactly what they are doing and are expert at it. They know the law, they have their own legal departments, they can, if the necessity arises, afforded the sharpest legal minds on the circuit. They take your money, that's all they do. They consider the law as optional, depending upon circumstances - its for the little people.

They are being hit hard at the moment. The credit crunch and customer loss of faith has hurt them, interest rate cuts have cut their income. Fewer savers and more defaulters plus borrowing down. Then the consumer revolt, bank charges - cost the banks millions - small beer I know but significant enough, and still going on. The financial provisions that they will have put in place will have cut into their working capital only to be followed up by this. Bank charges was an opinion, this isn't, its a flagrant breach of the law - plain English law too.

If they can beat money out of consumers, legally or otherwise, then they will. As soon as they roll over, every man and his dog will be defaulting and writing CCA requests. There is no defence, potentially every Credit card, store card, loan (unsecured) even (possibly) overdraft will be a loss to them. The cost is potentially ruinous. The law has been changed but not retrospectively so all agreements prior to the new legislation are a risk. It is unlikely that many, if any, CCC would survive if they acknowledged the law - its their own fault and personally I will not miss them but they will fight to the end.

A cornered animal - you know the rest.

Know what you are getting into, understand the risks.

Once you are ready then the support is there.

Remember, your CCCs will ring you, threaten you and make you life as difficult as they can to get your money - they won't be ringing me.......you decide.

I will help, if I can

S

Hi S,

Thanks very much for this. I'll keep you posted. I reckon they will be phoning and writing for payment, and no doubt move on to, or threaten debt collectors as they seem to have done with some others. I just may tag onto the bottom of the letter that all communiction should now be done in writing, and that I don't wish to discuss the account matters over the phone.

Your assitance is invaluable, thanks so much, as I need all the help I can get to deal with this.

To be honest my initial thoughts were that if they could produce the agreement, I would go on to request documents under SAR, then pass it on to one of those legal companies to deal with. So they could do a full audit of the docs and look for any breaches. In the absence of the contract, they won't be able to identify any breaches.

Thanks again.

P.S. Do you work in this field or is your knowledge gained by some other experience?

Hi Nixxy,

I'm a bit slow on the uptake, so bear with me!

They claim to have enclosed a copy of your agreement but only sent T&Cs. These T&C's are neither current or the T&Cs you opened the account with. They also propose to send to some more T&Cs later.

There is no document headed:

Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ?

If not, then it isn't the agreement and if it isn't signed by both you and a representative of the CCC then doubly it isn't!

I've just checked back and you CCA'd them in Feb so the 12+2 (working) and 30 (calender) days have expired. This agreement is now unenforceable since the CCC have committed an offence under the Consumer Credit Act (1974), as amended.

Scrub the letter from the other day, the time for that has passed. Try this one.

Dear Sir/Madam


ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXX XXX XXX XXX
Dear Sir
I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company. You have now failed to supply me with a copy of the original signed agreement for the alleged “debt” you are trying to enforce. This request was sent on <insert Date> together with the statutory fee of £1.00.

Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} The Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for this request to be carried out before your company enters into a default situation. If the request is not satisfied after a further 30 calendar days, your company commits an offence. These time limits expired on <insert Date> and <insert Date> respectively.

For your informtation the relevant section of the Consumer Credit Act states the following:

61 Signing of agreement
(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed
terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the
prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the
creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than
implied term.

Additionally:

By not supplying the crequested documentation I believe you have now committed a criminal act under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the consumer is totally unenforceable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

I will therefore no longer be making payments against the alleged debt as it is unenforceable. I now consider the matter closed and no further correspondence regarding payment will be entered into. If you persist on pursuing payment you will have left me no choice but to report this matter to such regulatory bodies as I see fit.



Yours Faithfully,

From this point the CCC do not have an agreement, even if they produce one, that complies with the legislation. They will need to have the agreement reinstated by the courts before they can collect any further payments.

This is when the serious wriggling and squirming starts. I'm not sure what they will do as it seems to follow no identifiable pattern. I guess that they will start ringing you to try to collect payment in which case we will need to try and silence them, some use DCAs but they are easier to get rid of (mostly).

Send the above with the dates etc filled in (registered again) and keep posting, see what we get.

All the best

S

Thanks Stubie-one,

I have received the letter below from them today.

******************************** *****************************

Dear xxx,

Ref: Section 78 of he CCA 1974

Account number XXXx xxxx xxxx xxxx

I write further to your letter requesting your executed agreement for the above account..................

Please find the following documents enclosed:

* a copy of your original credit agreement at the time you opened your account.

* Please note a copy of your current terms and conditions will be sent under seperate cover

The information we must provide to you under the terms of section 78 is prescribed by the CCA 1974 and by the Consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of documebnts) regulation 1983.

You will be receiving your next statement shortly which will provide you with the fulld etails of your account.

This completeds our obligation to you under section 78 of the CCA 1974.

Your sincerely

XXXXXX

Court orders and disclosures

Legal and Regulatory Compliance

********************************* *********************************

What they have enclosed are a set of conditions, which do not have my signature anywhere. I would go as far as to say these conditions would not have been the same as when the account was opened. It mentions promotional rates that expre some 3 years after the account was opened as well.

How can they say its properly executed without my signature or any dates anywhere on the document?

As they feel they have complied would the letter you have helped me with, still be the right one to send them.

Thanks so much Nixxy

Dear Sir/Madam,

I wrote to you recently requesting a true, signed copy of the executed credit agreement in relation to the above account. This is my right under Sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (as amended) on payment of the statutory fee of £1.00. This payment was included with my original request. A provision of standard terms and conditions like the ones you sent me do not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act :(1974) (as amended).

In case you are unsure of the requirement in statute it runs as follows:

As you will be aware, you are not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in default.

The lack of a properly executed signed agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

*You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
*You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I look forward to your reply and require a response by <state a date 14 days from the date of posting> .

Yours faithfully

****************************** ****************************

Obviuosly, remove the notes and add the relevant dates, if the dates have passed, as I suspect they have, then amend the wording to suit.

Remember to avoid any reference to an agreement signed by you, this could be construed as acknowledgement of the agreement. these b*gg*rs are unscrupulous and will try any means to force payment out of you, any technicality will do. Also remember that these are usually big companies with a full legal department at their disposal. They will analyse any correspondance and seek to exploit a flaw or weakness.

good luck

Hi gavftm,

No one is trying to avoid paying what they owe. This process will not avoid paying the debt since the process will not eliminate the debt. The purpose of what we are doing is to force the banks and CCCs to abide by the law.

If you get caught speeding, it s a fair cop. So why should big companies evade the law because they are big and feel that they own the law.

Hi Stubei-one,

Thanks so much for your replies on both my posts, on this thread and the Barclaycard one. No court action is being threatened by anyone as yet. One of the CCC's (BC), have sent me a set of standard terms and conditions. It basically says they apply to the person whom the covering letter is addressed to.They have also sent me a letter today requesting payment.

My situation now is I have sent them two letters so far. The first one made the initial request, and the second confirmed the account is officially in dispute.

Please let me know if you think the letter below is appropriate to send to them. What do you think? (I haven't sent it yet though), and await advice.

********************************** ******************************

Dear Sir/Madam,

I wrote to you recently requesting a true, signed copy of any alleged credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. This is my right under Sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on payment of the statutory fee of £1.00. This payment was included with my original request. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement that may leave it improperly executed. A provision of standard terms and conditions like the ones you sent me are not satisfactory for my requirements. I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature.

An unsigned copy, or application form, will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

As you will be aware, you are not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a properly executed signed agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

*You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
*You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by give them 14 days.

Regards

********************************* ******************************

Thanks a lot once again - Nixxy

Hi nickiei,

Can you give me some more info so I can advise.

What were the first and second letters?

I guess the first letter is a CCA request, if so, when did you send it. Timing is important!

I also need dates for the other letters you sent.

Finally, what have you received (if anything) in reply?

Ta

Hi again,

The letter in the March 29th post is a bit premature, if I understand the current state of play on your claim. CPR claims only relate to a case being brought to court. It requires the plaintiff to reveal the information they intend to present to the court pursuant to the case being presented. If the CCC cannot present a true executed agreement in accordance with the Act (as amended) but intend to present one to the court then they would be obliged to provide a copy in response to a CPR request. Failure is a breach of Civil Procedure Rules and would, again weigh the case against the CCC if they were unable to provide the agreement in response to CCA request but propose to use it in evidence in court.

As I don't think that court action is being threatened, this is not relevant at this point. Stick to the CCA (1974) for now and ensure that the the documentation provided complies with the requirements of this piece of legislation as the CCCs will try to give you anything they have and hope you will accept it as an agreement.

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement
(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—
(a) the state of the account, and
(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and
(c) the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(2) If the creditor possesses insufficient information to enable him to ascertain the amounts and dates mentioned in subsection (1)(c), he shall be taken to comply with that paragraph if his statement under subsection (1) gives the basis on which, under the regulated agreement, they would fall to be ascertained.

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to—
(a) an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or
(b) a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

(4) Where running-account credit is provided under a regulated agreement, the creditor shall give the debtor statements in the prescribed form, and with the prescribed contents—
(a) showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer, the state of the account at regular intervals of not more than twelve months, and
(b) where the agreement provides, in relation to specified periods, for the making of payments by the debtor, or the charging against him of interest or any other sum, showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer the state of the account at the end of each of those periods during which there is any movement in the account.

(5) A statement under subsection (4) shall be given within the prescribed period after the end of the period to which the statement relates.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—
(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and
(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

The above is what you should expect.

All the best

Hi Nixxy,

To pass your details to a DCA whilst the account is in dispute is a breach of the Data Protection Act (1998). Once you make a CCA request (s77-79) the CCC is obliged under the CCA to provide the original executed agreement with all related documents. One of the documents they must provide is the ORIGINAL T&Cs as these include the statement giving authority to share personal information and uptate the agreement and T&Cs etc. If they fail to provide this and go into a default then they do not have the relevant authority to share personal details with a CRA or a DCA.

If you really want to go for them, hit them with a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act (1998). I might have a template somewhere for this but they then have to reveal all communications (it is important to be specific about any information you especially require) and information they hold in relation to your account. This should show that your information was shared with a DCA whilst the account was in dispute and the CCC was in default. There is a £10 charge for this and they have 40 days to respond. If what you say is true, then the SAR will either show then to have committed an illegal act (6 months imprisonment and/or £2,500 fine) or not, which will add weight to your case, should you have to go to court. Failure to comply with this request is also an offence.

At the end of play you will build a portfolio of "offences" comitted by the CCC which the CCC will have to account for to a judge in the event of a hearing. This will significantly prejudice a case against them.

It is worth noting that, once the account goes into default on the part of the CCC, such acts as the the Communications Act (2003) s127 and the Protection From Harrassment Act (1997) can be quoted to CCCs and DCAs as a reason to stop phone calls whilst the account is in dispute, both cite offences for a breach.

Good luck with your quest

Hi again,

I dont think they will say account in dispute. You need to let them know its in dispute as per the template letter. there is another thread titled 'Barclaycard' running at the moment on this forum. Have a look and see what other users have said.

I'll see how long it takes for them to reply any of my letters, and take it from there. Its hard to say what I will do, as I have to know what they are going to say to me. i think its a case of sending them relevant letters with accurate info. I have seen a letter on this forum, asking for the debt to be written off in the absence of a contract. One person did have a reply saying the company wuould not pursue the debt, but they considered it outstanding and would enter defaults againts the person.

I don't reckon this happens a lot, and it was not a cc company, i think it was a catalogue company.

Keep in touch